From: John Hale [john.hale@stonebow.otago.ac.nz] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:30 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Question Is "Fontarabbia" (PL I.587) named in any of the Italian epics? Or is this form of the name just what Italian does to Spanish "Fuenterrabia"? What happens in Italian gazetteers of more general compilations? I ask this because of a shortage of relevant reference material here. I hope someone can help. The name has a jinx on it, though, not only because Milton seems to have made a mistake in his allusion but because the form of the name shifts around for both Italian and Spanish spellings (-er, -ar, -arr, -err, and b/bb). Thanks. John Hale From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:58 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Sara, My comment was about memorization for its own sake, not about Harold Bloom. There has never been anyone like him. It's fitting that he's a department of one. "The Anxiety of Influence" and "A Map of Misreading" were to my generation what Northrup Frye's work was to Bloom's. It changed how we read. They will still be reading his books in one hundred years and nobody will remember or care that he had a remarkable memory. I did like the "in his bones" metaphor. Jim Sara van den Berg Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/17/2001 09:46 PM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Anyone who ever had the privilege of hearing Harold Bloom read poetry would never be bored listening to him recite Paradise Lost or any other poem. When I had a seminar with him years ago, he impressed everyone in the class with his genuine and profound love of the poetry we read--and of poetry in general. He is a passionate reader, and knows massive amounts of poetry "in his bones." Most of the wonderful teachers I have known can do much the same. A sign of that is the old academic party game of throwing "misquotations" at each other in rapid volleys that make up a crackpot conversation. Sara van den Beerg Sara van den Berg CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > Thanks, Seb. The phone analogy is excellent. The New York Knicks once > had a player (Jerry Lucas) who had a photographic memory. He could and > did memorize the telephone book. Once he'd proven it to a few reporters > the novelty quickly wore off, and they scampered away in search of someone > capable of supplying an interesting sound bite. (He was a less than > dynamic interview on an unusually, articulate team that included a Rhodes > scholar - Senator Bradley). The fact that Harold Bloom has a prodigious > memory merits a passing mention in any discussion of the man or his work. > > I agree - if trapped in a room with someone reciting PL from memory, I'd > be bored. However, I would not sit smiling for hours. > > Jim Clinton > > Seb Perry > Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > 12/13/2001 09:37 AM > Please respond to milton-l > > To: milton-l@richmond.edu > cc: > Subject: RE: memorizing Milton > > >From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com > >> > >That is correct. Harold Bloom, if one accepts the Yale myth, recited > >"Dante's Inferno" and "Paradise Lost" shortly after arriving in New > Haven. > > These and other party tricks (reciting the Rhyme of the Ancient > Mariner > >backwards) were "misread" as signs of erudition. Harold Bloom has > often > >commented on his ability to read extraordinarily fast and retain > >everything. > > > > At last, the voice of reason! I was beginning to think I was the only one > who didn't find such a feat all that amazing. Don't get me wrong - it's > not > that being able to memorise enormous chunks of text isn't impressive > (though > not much more so than being able to do the Times crossword on the tube!). > Surely the point is that such a memory can be applied to learning any > work. > There's nothing intrinsically more awe-inspiring about knowing the Divine > Comedy off by heart than being able to recite the telephone directory. At > least the latter may come in handy if there's someone he needs to call. > > And besides, no-one seems to have realised that the sort of person who > sets > about doing this is probably a dreadful bore that you wouldn't want to > have > round for a dinner party. All it would take is one sycophant to ask for a > demonstration and we'd be there for hours smiling politely. > > Seb Perry. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: Tim Strzechowski [dedalus204@attbi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 9:51 PM To: Milton-L Subject: Milton Marathon on 12/15/01 The 3rd Annual Milton Marathon took place at Argo Community High School = on Saturday, December 15th. For details, see: http://www.argo217.k12.il.us/departs/english/milton/milton2001.htm Best, Tim Strzechowski From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:41 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading ->sigh<- MR. Carrol Cox's position in no way proceeds from or is connected with MS. Carol Barton's position on this subject, which has not even been put forth . . . a disclaimer I felt duty-bound to make, lest the customary confusion of one with the other proliferate. Carol (one R and female) Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading > > The assumption that anyone dismissive of Carol's position is handicapped > by a fundamental "ignorance of US policies and activities overseas since > WWII" is more offensive than Carol's position. The assertion that "we've > supported every two-bit dictator across the planet across the face of the > earth in our fight against communism" speaks for itself. Do you make > this up as you go along ? > > JC > > > > > > > James Rovira > Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > 01/14/2002 06:11 PM > Please respond to milton-l > > > To: milton-l@richmond.edu > cc: > Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading > > > > No, Carol says things like this because she's informed about some of the > realities of US involvement overseas. What we did in and to Panama, > killing > hundreds of civilians and essentially pre-empting the soverignty of the > country, > was completely shameless. We've supported every two bit dictator across > the > planet across the face of the earth in our fight against communism, and > have > supported terrible human rights abuses indirectly that way as well. In > Iran, we > funded and trained the Shah who used our money and training to brutalize > his own > people. And then we wonder why the revolutionary government identified > the > US as > "the great Satan." We acted like it. > > This doesn't justify the terrorist acts of the 11th or invalidate the > legitimacy > of US aggression in Afghanistan, but it's terribly -- immoral -- to be a > voting > US citizen and remain ignorant of US activities overseas since WW II. > > Jim > > > Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > > > < of > > which have for 50 years terrorized the world. > > Carrol >> > > > > Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated > the > > specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the > bloodiest > > dictatorship in the history of humanity? > > (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and > clothing the > > victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > > > > I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to > seem > > like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're > stupid > > and offensive. > > > > Timothy Sandefur > > > > From: jfleming@sfu.ca Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:24 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Islamic interpretation fBIJONB12069 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by argyle.richmond.edu id fBIJO0V30335 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Perhaps an important question to be extracted from the current thread is what Milton would have thought of Islamic hermeneutics. In _DDD_ M promulgates a model of Christian interpretation as radically free, because consisting in a liberation from previous unfreedom. “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” says the Christ of Milton’s divorce argument, thereby inverting and annihilating (M insists) the Jewish dispensation of concrete and opaque rule-observance, even while maintaining that dispensation’s rigor and authority. The new law is “there used to be a law,” and the point-form version of this already-simple rule is the single and flexible word “love.” All this, of course, is quintessentially Protestant and typological (see Herbert’s “Jordan (2)” and "Bunch of Grapes"), as well as running right back to Augustine and, for that matter, to the Christ of those scriptures that Milton selects. In other words (since my bias is already showing), Milton’s argument is right, and Christianity’s legacy is a radical interpretative freedom founded in the knowledge that God 1) gave laws, and 2) then took those laws away, even while insisting that he was fulfilling them thereby. The maneuverability provided by this construction is evident in _DDD_, where it allows M to deny an entire legal and cultural tradition by insisting that when Christ spoke against divorce (as he did), he wasn’t being Christian! The mind boggles at such creaturely impertinence ­ all the more so if the impertinence is, as M contends, orthodox. My question to anybody who knows is: how does this model compare to those available in Islam? Am I right in suspecting that Islam offers considerably less freedom in the interpretation of laws and texts of all kinds, because its scripture comes directly from God’s archangel with Muhammad as amanuensis, and has never been subjected to the sort of erasure that leaves the human subject in the condition of liberty and doubt? JD Fleming James Dougal Fleming Assistant Professor, English Simon Fraser University (604) 291-4713 ============================================================================ == From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:46 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton Seb, Nice, timely quote. I understand Ms. Griffin's assumption. Your critial thinking belies your age. By the way, at 22, Keats had entered his "mature" phase. James Clinton Seb Perry Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/17/2001 08:25 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: RE: memorizing Milton Julia Griffin wrote: >Dr. Perry's comments on Bloom I'm flattered that my observations carry such a scholarly air, but I am in fact plain old 'Mr'. Give me a chance, though - I'm only 22. >reminded me somehow of Max Beerbohm's ballade of self-consolation (not >its >title, which I forget), which ends with the >envoi: >Milton, my help, my prop, my stay, >My well of English undefiled! >It struck me suddenly today: >YOU must have been AN AWFUL child. Thanks for that. I'm also reminded of another Beerbohm quip, this time from *Zuleika Dobson*. It no doubt explains my attitude to Bloom: "The dullard's envy of brilliant men is always assuaged by the suspicion that they will come to a bad end." Regards, Seb. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:18 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and music Nam tua praesentem vox sonat ipsa Deum ... Quod si cuncta quidem Deus est, per cunctaque fusus, In te una loquitur ... For the sound of your voice makes it clear that God is present ... If God is (in?) all things and omnipresent, nonetheless he speaks in you alone >From a sonnet in tribute to Leonora Baroni (1611-70), a court singer of the period. Scott Grunow University of Illinois at Chicago Non hai tu in Menfi, desiderii, speranze? From: John Leonard [jleonard@uwo.ca] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 11:42 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Comus on tape? (Found) John, This is a great find. It's worth adding that Argo also has a superb Paradise Lost (with Michael Redgrave as Satan). If it is still available, it is well worth picking up (at any price). John Leonard ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Geraghty" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Comus on tape? (Found) > > I'm afraid I deleted the original email so I do not know who made the > original request... > > I found a web site which lists this lp for sale for 5 pounds (quite a > bargain). The catalog number is listed as ZRG 544-5. Hopefully they still > have the record. They accept credit cards and mail worldwide. > > description as follows: > John Milton Comus (A Masque) - spoken word Argo > The site is: http://www.classical-lps.co.uk/barg.htm > email them at sales@classical-lps.co.uk > > Also, I'm not sure if you are aware of this but "Rule Brittania" Thomas Arne > scored the masque and this lp might be of interest to you. I found it listed > for sale at www.vinyluk.com. I have no idea if this is just the score or the > entire masque. If you do get this, let me know... > > Here's the info: > > THOMAS ARNE: comus > LP decca, ols 140, 1972. Ex/Mint. > Search our ENTIRE music stock at www.vinyluk.com Book # M38619 > Price: US$ 14.00 > > Phone/Fax:- +44 (0)113 2957773 > Email: Sales@VinylUK.com > Postal Address:- > VinylUK > 96 Hartley Avenue > Leeds, LS6 2HZ, UK > > About Arne (from http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/orpheus.html): > > Thomas Arne (1710-1778) was the leading figure in English theatrical music > in the mid-18th century. In 1732, with his father as impresario, Arne and > his brother and sister gave a completely unauthorized performance of > Handel's Acis and Galatea at the Haymarket Theatre, which was perhaps a > fitting introduction to the turbulent, competitive and always colourful > world of the London theatre. He produced nearly 90 dramatic compositions > with his greatest success being the production of Artaxerxes at Covent > Garden in 1762. His major early successes include his setting of Milton's > Comus (1738) and his masque Alfred, best known for the song 'Rule > Brittania'. He continued to compose for the theatre throughout his life but > also turned increasingly to songs in the 1760s. > > Arne's work in the theatre has overshadowed his other compositions, but his > unique gift of melody is equally obvious in his songs, odes and instrumental > music, which includes two sets of overtures and 'Six favourite concertos for > organ, harpsichord or pianoforte'. A 19th-century writer described his > compositions as featuring "a natural ease and elegance, a flow of melody ... > and a fullness and variety of harmony" and concluded that "he had neither > the vigour of Purcell, nor the grandeur, simplicity and magnificence of > Handel; he apparently aimed at pleasing, and he has fully succeeded." > > > Let me know if you get the lp(s) and good luck > -John: > > >From: Roy Flannagan > >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > >To: milton-l@richmond.edu > >Subject: Re: Comus on tape? > >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:25:19 -0500 > > > > Hope this helps > -John > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:00 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: oddity Responses below. Larry Isitt wrote: > > P.J. Stewart writes (in part): "I think the USA has genuinely terrified > the Muslim world since 1948, > when Truman recognized Israel 10 minutes after it had been declared . . > ." > > To recognize is not to terrify, as that word is currently employed to > describe groups deliberately killing civilians in non-war situations. Larry -- to "terrify" is not to "terrorize." "Groups deliberately killing civilians in non-war situations" is "terrorism." It's not "terrification" or something like that :). I don't think the post you were quoting meant to identify the US with terrorist actions in recognizing Israel as a sovereign state. I would agree that would be a misnomer if it were employed. > > What exactly do you mean by "After all, their [traditional Christians'] > only guide to post-New-Testament history was the Book of Revelation!"? > Your exclamation mark makes it seem as though you hold such belief as > perfect lunacy and naivete. Your so-called traditional Christians do > read history too and they now and again have dipped into the pages of > the Koran and seen there its anti-Christian bias, denying the death of > Christ on the Cross and its exultation of Mohammed as supreme spokesman > for Allah. > > Larry Isitt > English Dept. > College of the Ozarks > Point Lookout, MO 65726 > 417-334-6411, Ext. 4269 > email: isitt @ cofo.edu > I think that's a pretty weak reading of the Koran. I've read a good bit of it myself (haven't finished it, good lord it's a tedious book in English, at least), but OF COURSE the Koran disagrees with Christian soteriology and Christology. As does Jewish theology. But that doesn't mean it's "opposed to" Christ. Christ's teachings are held in some positive regard at the same time that Christian teachings about Christ are rejected. I think this is an interesting anticipation of European humanist attitudes around the time of the Englightenment, btw. The Koran is interesting in that its teachings are consciously designed to serve the ends of creating a stable Islamic state (among other things, of course). This requires a measure of religious tolerance for both Jews and Christians, along with doctrines about the proper conduct of war. This is probably what's unique about Islam in the major world religions operating today. I think the traditional western biases against Islam are due, in part, to readings of the Koran similar to yours (which I said was "weak" but not "incorrect" -- there is some basis for reading the Koran as you have), and due in part to the fact that Muslim forces controlled a good bit of Europe by conquest for quite some time. Said in his _Orientalism_ also talks about how these attitudes work very well in supporting US and European colonial interests in Islamic states, but tends to downplay or ignore prior Muslim aggression against the west. Jim From: P J Stewart [philip.stewart@plant-sciences.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 9:38 AM To: Milton-l Subject: Re: oddity What more terrifying than having a colony established on your holiest shore with a potential immigration of more than ten million and backed by the most powerful nation on earth, the destroyer of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? As for the suggestion that Islam is anti-Christian, Larry Isitt needs to read a little history. When the perscution of Muslims first began in Mecca, Muhammad encouraged his followers to seek refuge in Abyssinia because he thought they would be safe under the protection of a Christian sovereign. After the submission of Mecca he received a Christian delegation from Najran in southern Arabia; they debated theology for several days and then parted on friendly terms. It is thought to be in the wake of this visit that the Koran said: 'You will certainly find the closest in affection towards the faithful are those who call themselves Christians; that is because among them are scholars and monks, and because they are not proud.' It was only in the last two years of his life that Muhammad learnt that the Christian Arab tribe of Ghassan, clients of the Byzantines, were preparing an attack, and his last expeditions were defensive ones against them. But the Koran never told Muslims to fight against the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) if the latter did not attack them. Within five years of Muhammad's death, the Muslims conquered Syria. The Caliph Omar sent letters to the Christian leaders of all the towns assuring them that they could practise their religion, keep their churches, their crosses and their property and that the sick and the well would be protected. The Byzantines had abolished the Jewish Patriarchate, but soon the Jews of Syria reemerged under the tolerant control of the Muslims. It is laughable to suggest that Muslim rejection of belief in the literal resurrection makes them enemies of Christians. Many of my Christian friends go further in demythologizing the Bible. As for the Anti-Christ...! Get real! Anyway, let's get back to Milton. I supplied a quote from Cromwell and Rose Williams has supplied that wonderful quote from her ancestor; where did Milton stand on tolerance of non-Christian religions? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Isitt" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:04 PM Subject: RE: oddity > id fBHG6LZ20191 > Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > > P.J. Stewart writes (in part): "I think the USA has genuinely terrified > the Muslim world since 1948, > when Truman recognized Israel 10 minutes after it had been declared . . > ." > > To recognize is not to terrify, as that word is currently employed to > describe groups deliberately killing civilians in non-war situations. > Truman recognized Israel because Palestine is their homeland. That such > an action "terrified the Muslim world" is not an act of terror on our > part. Such casual usage of the term is to link us unfairly with > terrorists the like of those we currently face in Afghanistan in the > Al-Queda organization. > > Muhammed is against Christ and thus your statement that "the traditional > Christians' idea that Muhammad was the Anti-Christ" is not without > foundation in the centuries of antagonism between the two beliefs. The > Koran is unmistakable in its denunciation of Judaism and Christianity > (despite its recognition of the two in certain passages). For example, > the Koran denies absolutely the historicity of Jesus' death and > resurrection. Jesus is but "an apostle" (5.75), not the Son of God in an > absolute divine sense. His death on the cross did not even happen: > > "And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, > the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify > him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who > differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge > respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for > sure (4.157)." > > What exactly do you mean by "After all, their [traditional Christians'] > only guide to post-New-Testament history was the Book of Revelation!"? > Your exclamation mark makes it seem as though you hold such belief as > perfect lunacy and naivete. Your so-called traditional Christians do > read history too and they now and again have dipped into the pages of > the Koran and seen there its anti-Christian bias, denying the death of > Christ on the Cross and its exultation of Mohammed as supreme spokesman > for Allah. > > Larry Isitt > English Dept. > College of the Ozarks > Point Lookout, MO 65726 > 417-334-6411, Ext. 4269 > email: isitt @ cofo.edu > > -----Original Message----- > From: P J Stewart [mailto:philip.stewart@plant-sciences.oxford.ac.uk] > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:42 AM > To: Milton-l > Subject: oddity > > > > Every internet group I've ever belonged to goes through periodic > crises of > heated denunciation. I hope my remark about America's 'oddity' is not to > blame for the current outbreak of hostilities. What strikes me is that > there is something very 17th-century about America. I'm sure that in the > stage-coaches of Milton's England there were many Bible-reading > passengers, > and it struck me that my son's observation about the New York subway > might > tie in with the fact that 90% of this internet group seems to be > American > (my first milton-l e-mails of each day arrive in a rush at 1 pm > Greenwich > time, which is 8 am Eastern Standard Time). Do Americans feel a special > empathy with 17th century literature? > I would like to help to defuse the controversy about whether America > has > 'terrorized the world' for the last 50 years. Not the whole world > perhaps, > but I think the USA has genuinely terrified the Muslim world since 1948, > when Truman recognized Israel 10 minutes after it had been declared, > while > his delegation at the UN was debating an American proposal for a UN > trusteeship to succeed the UK Mandate. The colossal misjudgement of the > Arab > world that has characterized US Middle East policy ever since must > surely be > the modern version of the traditional Christians' idea that Muhammad was > the > Anti-Christ. After all, their only guide to post-New-Testament history > was > the Book of Revelation! > And what about Milton? What would he have thought of Oliver > Cromwell's > remark "I had rather that Mohometanism were permitted amongst us than > that > one of God's children should be persecuted"? With Suleyman the > Magnificent > at the gates of Vienna, an Islamic Europe seemed a real possibility. > Philip Stewart > > > From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 9:17 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Johnny Mnemonic My own two cents, for what it's worth... I have the lyrics to Elton John's "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" album entirely memorized...in that, while the songs are playing, I remember all the words. I can't recite them cold, however, with the possible exception of most of "Bennie and the Jets." I say this not having a photographic memory. In fact, I tend to compare my own memory to that of a spaghetti strainer. The little details tend to slip through the holes while the larger particles stay caught...sometimes :). I think memorizing something set to music is nowhere near as difficult as memorizing straight poetry or prose...unless you can figure out a way to put a tune to it. So I'd tend to stand in awe of anyone who has a text as large as Milton's Paradise Lost memorized (unless they have the wonderful gift of a photographic memory). I wouldn't even expect the author to have memorized more than parts of it. I can seldom recite my own poetry, because I don't apply myself to learning it that way. Jim Seb Perry wrote: > > Er... Carol, I'm afraid the evidence suggests that if Milton came to your > table he would have YOU reading *Paradise Lost* aloud to HIM. > > >(Those who doubt the blind poet had his work by heart are welcome to >check > >the matrix of parallel and self-referential lines on EMLS; there >is no way > >he could have accomplished all that without the same >incredible mnemonic > >power customarily attributed to that other blind >poet.) > > I'm generally not impressed when a poet can remember his own work. If he > can't then how can he expect anyone else to? That said, I found it very > endearing when I learnt that, in rehearsals for their first world tour in > several years, R.E.M. were forced to purchase an *Automatic For the People* > guitar chord book because they couldn't recall how their own songs went. > > I wouldn't have John Milton at a literary dinner party anyway. He'd only > intimidate the other guests. On second thoughts, I would only invite him if > I could invite Percy Shelley as well, just to see if the latter poet had the > nerve to turn up. > > Regards, > > Seb Perry. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:44 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <3C1EADF1.2234AB93@slu.edu> Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:15:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Sara van den Berg writes that: > Anyone who ever had the privilege of hearing Harold Bloom read poetry would > never be bored listening to him recite Paradise Lost or any other poem. When > I had a seminar with him years ago, he impressed everyone in the class with > his genuine and profound love of the poetry we read--and of poetry in > general. He is a passionate reader, and knows massive amounts of poetry "in > his bones." Most of the wonderful teachers I have known can do much the > same. A sign of that is the old academic party game of throwing > "misquotations" at each other in rapid volleys that make up a crackpot > conversation. All of us have had the experience of remembering something we weren't aware we "knew" about _Paradise Lost_, I'm sure: once, on another list, someone asked a question about Milton's cosmos, and without knowing why, I knew exactly what he was referring to. It wasn't anything that had ever figured significantly in my work . . . but I went immediately to the passage, without thinking about it. Yes, of course Milton had amanuenses re-read sections of the text to him; to begin with, he was much too meticulous a scholar to rely solely on memory for constructing the densely complex instances of self-referentiality that _Paradise Lost_ contains; and as the matrix at http://www.shu.ac.uk/emls/iemls/work/MiltonMatrix.html demonstrates, the parallels and inversions are so exacting and so abundant that they cannot have been fortuitous. (I am working on expanding the list at that address to include cross-referential echoes in PR and SA, and will add that already considerable and ever-growing catalogue of items as soon as time allows.) One really cannot appreciate the enormity of Milton's accomplishment until he or she sees such a list firsthand. And as for an author knowing his or her own work: we are talking about specific phrases here, not long passages---sometimes, about individual words -- in 10,668 lines of poetry that the blind poet did not even have the mnemonic assistance of synaesthesia to "record." I don't think it's an achievement we can dismiss lightly. Merry Christmas, all--and belated (public) happy birthday, John! Carol Barton From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 9:33 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Responses below. Again, anyone interested in continuing this discussion off list in a Current Events listserve, please e-mail jrovira@drew.edu. Larry Isitt wrote: > > Jim, > Was the alternative to fighting communism, a worldwide serious threat to > peace, not to fight it at all? When you say America has "supported every > two bit dictator" . . . in our fight against communism" do you contend > instead that we should have been fighting or supporting the communist > side of these political equations? In China, Korea, S. Vietnam, for > instances? If you do,then are you not distorting the threat Communism at > the time presented to our safety and worldwide interests? > The alternatives are hardly that simple. We weren't confronted with a choice between severe right wing oppressive dictators and communist dictators. At times -- as in the case of Panama -- we overthrew democratically elected goverments and set dictators (like Noriega) in place. I believe that was the case in Iran as well. Yes, I believe Khomeini was aware of the role the US played in the world, but especially in his own country, and was motivated by that to call the US the "great Satan" and the "world devourer." That last phrase is especially interesting, given that we were supporting US business interests and attempting to control world resources through our post WW II foreign policy. It wasn't just about fighting communism, although that did very strongly motivate us. > Further, when you say that we Americans "have supported terrible human > rights abuses indirectly" what do you mean exactly? That we should > better have been about the business of reform before deciding to stop > Communist aggressions in those countries? Or perhaps have done nothing > at all while watching Communism sweep away the dictatorships and > human-rights abusers for us--only to replace them with worse? Where in > the universe of communism are the human rights champions? > It's pretty facile to assume all communist takeovers would automatically instilling a "worse" regime. I can't imagine a regime worse than Noriega's or the Shah's. I'm hardly saying that communist governments were "better" than dictatorial governments -- in many cases, if not most, they were not. Perhaps if we worked with these governments instead of tried to overthrow them we may have been more successful in keeping the "dirty Russkies" out. I think it's a mistake to think people overseas don't know what we're doing, though. I worked with a man from Argentina who told me the right wing dictatorship there in the late 70s, early 80s made 30,000 people just "disappear," one of them being his own brother (the reason why I was in America talking to him. He finally gained US citizenship and was quite ecstatic). He said that Jimmy Carter put a lot of pressure on that country because of its human rights abuses and it made a lot of difference. Then when Reagan took power, he didn't really care what the government did...and that's when my co-worker felt he had to escape. So yes, Virginia, people around the world are aware of who we support and how they are able to act because of our support (and the type of support we give them). I think we're imposing a pretty stubborn blindness upon ourselves if we think that supporting people who oppress their own people is going to win us the love of people around the world. Sometimes they might even be inclined to retaliate...as we do when we're attacked. Jim From: Sara van den Berg [vandens@SLU.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 9:46 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Anyone who ever had the privilege of hearing Harold Bloom read poetry would never be bored listening to him recite Paradise Lost or any other poem. When I had a seminar with him years ago, he impressed everyone in the class with his genuine and profound love of the poetry we read--and of poetry in general. He is a passionate reader, and knows massive amounts of poetry "in his bones." Most of the wonderful teachers I have known can do much the same. A sign of that is the old academic party game of throwing "misquotations" at each other in rapid volleys that make up a crackpot conversation. Sara van den Beerg Sara van den Berg CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > Thanks, Seb. The phone analogy is excellent. The New York Knicks once > had a player (Jerry Lucas) who had a photographic memory. He could and > did memorize the telephone book. Once he'd proven it to a few reporters > the novelty quickly wore off, and they scampered away in search of someone > capable of supplying an interesting sound bite. (He was a less than > dynamic interview on an unusually, articulate team that included a Rhodes > scholar - Senator Bradley). The fact that Harold Bloom has a prodigious > memory merits a passing mention in any discussion of the man or his work. > > I agree - if trapped in a room with someone reciting PL from memory, I'd > be bored. However, I would not sit smiling for hours. > > Jim Clinton > > Seb Perry > Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > 12/13/2001 09:37 AM > Please respond to milton-l > > To: milton-l@richmond.edu > cc: > Subject: RE: memorizing Milton > > >From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com > >> > >That is correct. Harold Bloom, if one accepts the Yale myth, recited > >"Dante's Inferno" and "Paradise Lost" shortly after arriving in New > Haven. > > These and other party tricks (reciting the Rhyme of the Ancient > Mariner > >backwards) were "misread" as signs of erudition. Harold Bloom has > often > >commented on his ability to read extraordinarily fast and retain > >everything. > > > > At last, the voice of reason! I was beginning to think I was the only one > who didn't find such a feat all that amazing. Don't get me wrong - it's > not > that being able to memorise enormous chunks of text isn't impressive > (though > not much more so than being able to do the Times crossword on the tube!). > Surely the point is that such a memory can be applied to learning any > work. > There's nothing intrinsically more awe-inspiring about knowing the Divine > Comedy off by heart than being able to recite the telephone directory. At > least the latter may come in handy if there's someone he needs to call. > > And besides, no-one seems to have realised that the sort of person who > sets > about doing this is probably a dreadful bore that you wouldn't want to > have > round for a dinner party. All it would take is one sycophant to ask for a > demonstration and we'd be there for hours smiling politely. > > Seb Perry. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: Larry Isitt [isitt@cofo.edu] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:18 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: odd Bible-reading id fBHFJLZ14205 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Jim, Was the alternative to fighting communism, a worldwide serious threat to peace, not to fight it at all? When you say America has "supported every two bit dictator" . . . in our fight against communism" do you contend instead that we should have been fighting or supporting the communist side of these political equations? In China, Korea, S. Vietnam, for instances? If you do,then are you not distorting the threat Communism at the time presented to our safety and worldwide interests? Further, when you say that we Americans "have supported terrible human rights abuses indirectly" what do you mean exactly? That we should better have been about the business of reform before deciding to stop Communist aggressions in those countries? Or perhaps have done nothing at all while watching Communism sweep away the dictatorships and human-rights abusers for us--only to replace them with worse? Where in the universe of communism are the human rights champions? The term "Great Satan" originated with the Ayatollah Khomeni did it not? Do you really wish to employ the term without qualification as though you agree with his point of view? Why did this hater of the USA employ the term in the first place--as a fighter against human rights abuses that you concern yourself with denouncing in US policy? Hardly. Larry Isitt English Dept. College of the Ozarks Point Lookout, MO 65726 417-334-6411, Ext. 4269 email: isitt @ cofo.edu -----Original Message----- From: James Rovira [mailto:jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 5:11 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading No, Carol says things like this because she's informed about some of the realities of US involvement overseas. What we did in and to Panama, killing hundreds of civilians and essentially pre-empting the soverignty of the country, was completely shameless. We've supported every two bit dictator across the planet across the face of the earth in our fight against communism, and have supported terrible human rights abuses indirectly that way as well. In Iran, we funded and trained the Shah who used our money and training to brutalize his own people. And then we wonder why the revolutionary government identified the US as "the great Satan." We acted like it. This doesn't justify the terrorist acts of the 11th or invalidate the legitimacy of US aggression in Afghanistan, but it's terribly -- immoral -- to be a voting US citizen and remain ignorant of US activities overseas since WW II. Jim Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > < which have for 50 years terrorized the world. > Carrol >> > > Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the > specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest > dictatorship in the history of humanity? > (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing the > victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > > I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem > like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're stupid > and offensive. > > Timothy Sandefur From: Roy Lisker [rlisker@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:48 AM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton and Music Over the weekend of December 7th to 9th, the actor/poet John Basinger recited in performance and from memory, all 12 books of Milton's Paradise Lost. The production was filmed.More information can be obtained at the website In the context of this performance, on the afternoon of December 8th, I delivered a talk entitled "Milton and Music" . It talks about Milton's connection to English music through his father, the influence of the revolutionary developments in music of the Italian Baroque, and neo-Platonist notions of the role of music in the natural order. It can be read at the site: ===== Ferment and Ferment Press Dr.Roy Lisker Ferment, Ferment Press 8 Liberty Street #306 Middletown, CT 06457 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From: John Geraghty [johnegeraghty@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:02 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: roy@gwm.sc.edu Subject: Re: Comus on tape? (Found) I'm afraid I deleted the original email so I do not know who made the original request... I found a web site which lists this lp for sale for 5 pounds (quite a bargain). The catalog number is listed as ZRG 544-5. Hopefully they still have the record. They accept credit cards and mail worldwide. description as follows: John Milton Comus (A Masque) - spoken word Argo The site is: http://www.classical-lps.co.uk/barg.htm email them at sales@classical-lps.co.uk Also, I'm not sure if you are aware of this but "Rule Brittania" Thomas Arne scored the masque and this lp might be of interest to you. I found it listed for sale at www.vinyluk.com. I have no idea if this is just the score or the entire masque. If you do get this, let me know... Here's the info: THOMAS ARNE: comus LP decca, ols 140, 1972. Ex/Mint. Search our ENTIRE music stock at www.vinyluk.com Book # M38619 Price: US$ 14.00 Phone/Fax:- +44 (0)113 2957773 Email: Sales@VinylUK.com Postal Address:- VinylUK 96 Hartley Avenue Leeds, LS6 2HZ, UK About Arne (from http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/orpheus.html): Thomas Arne (1710-1778) was the leading figure in English theatrical music in the mid-18th century. In 1732, with his father as impresario, Arne and his brother and sister gave a completely unauthorized performance of Handel's Acis and Galatea at the Haymarket Theatre, which was perhaps a fitting introduction to the turbulent, competitive and always colourful world of the London theatre. He produced nearly 90 dramatic compositions with his greatest success being the production of Artaxerxes at Covent Garden in 1762. His major early successes include his setting of Milton's Comus (1738) and his masque Alfred, best known for the song 'Rule Brittania'. He continued to compose for the theatre throughout his life but also turned increasingly to songs in the 1760s. Arne's work in the theatre has overshadowed his other compositions, but his unique gift of melody is equally obvious in his songs, odes and instrumental music, which includes two sets of overtures and 'Six favourite concertos for organ, harpsichord or pianoforte'. A 19th-century writer described his compositions as featuring "a natural ease and elegance, a flow of melody ... and a fullness and variety of harmony" and concluded that "he had neither the vigour of Purcell, nor the grandeur, simplicity and magnificence of Handel; he apparently aimed at pleasing, and he has fully succeeded." Let me know if you get the lp(s) and good luck -John: >From: Roy Flannagan >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >Subject: Re: Comus on tape? >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:25:19 -0500 > Hope this helps -John _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 9:16 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading I agree completely. Offensive, stupid and boring. JC Seb Perry Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/15/2001 10:19 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Okay, I don't want to seem like a party-pooper but might I respectfully suggest this forum isn't best suited to the topic under discussion? Obviously I'm delighted that academics are climbing down from their ivory towers to talk about some serious issues, and I'm sure both parties have well-reasoned, sincere and convincing arguments to make. It's just that this type of debate inevitably descends into squabbling and accusations of "stupidity" and "offensiveness" and becomes, well, boring. Regards, Seb Perry. >From: Tmsandefur@aol.com >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu >To: milton-l@richmond.edu, cbcox@ilstu.edu >Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:31:57 EST > ><which have for 50 years terrorized the world. >Carrol >> > >Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the >specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest >dictatorship in the history of humanity? >(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing >the >victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > >I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem >like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're >stupid >and offensive. > >Timothy Sandefur > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From: Larry Isitt [isitt@cofo.edu] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:04 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: oddity id fBHG6LZ20191 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu P.J. Stewart writes (in part): "I think the USA has genuinely terrified the Muslim world since 1948, when Truman recognized Israel 10 minutes after it had been declared . . ." To recognize is not to terrify, as that word is currently employed to describe groups deliberately killing civilians in non-war situations. Truman recognized Israel because Palestine is their homeland. That such an action "terrified the Muslim world" is not an act of terror on our part. Such casual usage of the term is to link us unfairly with terrorists the like of those we currently face in Afghanistan in the Al-Queda organization. Muhammed is against Christ and thus your statement that "the traditional Christians' idea that Muhammad was the Anti-Christ" is not without foundation in the centuries of antagonism between the two beliefs. The Koran is unmistakable in its denunciation of Judaism and Christianity (despite its recognition of the two in certain passages). For example, the Koran denies absolutely the historicity of Jesus' death and resurrection. Jesus is but "an apostle" (5.75), not the Son of God in an absolute divine sense. His death on the cross did not even happen: "And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure (4.157)." What exactly do you mean by "After all, their [traditional Christians'] only guide to post-New-Testament history was the Book of Revelation!"? Your exclamation mark makes it seem as though you hold such belief as perfect lunacy and naivete. Your so-called traditional Christians do read history too and they now and again have dipped into the pages of the Koran and seen there its anti-Christian bias, denying the death of Christ on the Cross and its exultation of Mohammed as supreme spokesman for Allah. Larry Isitt English Dept. College of the Ozarks Point Lookout, MO 65726 417-334-6411, Ext. 4269 email: isitt @ cofo.edu -----Original Message----- From: P J Stewart [mailto:philip.stewart@plant-sciences.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:42 AM To: Milton-l Subject: oddity Every internet group I've ever belonged to goes through periodic crises of heated denunciation. I hope my remark about America's 'oddity' is not to blame for the current outbreak of hostilities. What strikes me is that there is something very 17th-century about America. I'm sure that in the stage-coaches of Milton's England there were many Bible-reading passengers, and it struck me that my son's observation about the New York subway might tie in with the fact that 90% of this internet group seems to be American (my first milton-l e-mails of each day arrive in a rush at 1 pm Greenwich time, which is 8 am Eastern Standard Time). Do Americans feel a special empathy with 17th century literature? I would like to help to defuse the controversy about whether America has 'terrorized the world' for the last 50 years. Not the whole world perhaps, but I think the USA has genuinely terrified the Muslim world since 1948, when Truman recognized Israel 10 minutes after it had been declared, while his delegation at the UN was debating an American proposal for a UN trusteeship to succeed the UK Mandate. The colossal misjudgement of the Arab world that has characterized US Middle East policy ever since must surely be the modern version of the traditional Christians' idea that Muhammad was the Anti-Christ. After all, their only guide to post-New-Testament history was the Book of Revelation! And what about Milton? What would he have thought of Oliver Cromwell's remark "I had rather that Mohometanism were permitted amongst us than that one of God's children should be persecuted"? With Suleyman the Magnificent at the gates of Vienna, an Islamic Europe seemed a real possibility. Philip Stewart From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:56 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading The assumption that anyone dismissive of Carol's position is handicapped by a fundamental "ignorance of US policies and activities overseas since WWII" is more offensive than Carol's position. The assertion that "we've supported every two-bit dictator across the planet across the face of the earth in our fight against communism" speaks for itself. Do you make this up as you go along ? JC James Rovira Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 01/14/2002 06:11 PM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading No, Carol says things like this because she's informed about some of the realities of US involvement overseas. What we did in and to Panama, killing hundreds of civilians and essentially pre-empting the soverignty of the country, was completely shameless. We've supported every two bit dictator across the planet across the face of the earth in our fight against communism, and have supported terrible human rights abuses indirectly that way as well. In Iran, we funded and trained the Shah who used our money and training to brutalize his own people. And then we wonder why the revolutionary government identified the US as "the great Satan." We acted like it. This doesn't justify the terrorist acts of the 11th or invalidate the legitimacy of US aggression in Afghanistan, but it's terribly -- immoral -- to be a voting US citizen and remain ignorant of US activities overseas since WW II. Jim Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > < which have for 50 years terrorized the world. > Carrol >> > > Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the > specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest > dictatorship in the history of humanity? > (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing the > victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > > I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem > like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're stupid > and offensive. > > Timothy Sandefur From: Seb Perry [sebperry@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:15 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Johnny Mnemonic Er... Carol, I'm afraid the evidence suggests that if Milton came to your table he would have YOU reading *Paradise Lost* aloud to HIM. >(Those who doubt the blind poet had his work by heart are welcome to >check >the matrix of parallel and self-referential lines on EMLS; there >is no way >he could have accomplished all that without the same >incredible mnemonic >power customarily attributed to that other blind >poet.) I'm generally not impressed when a poet can remember his own work. If he can't then how can he expect anyone else to? That said, I found it very endearing when I learnt that, in rehearsals for their first world tour in several years, R.E.M. were forced to purchase an *Automatic For the People* guitar chord book because they couldn't recall how their own songs went. I wouldn't have John Milton at a literary dinner party anyway. He'd only intimidate the other guests. On second thoughts, I would only invite him if I could invite Percy Shelley as well, just to see if the latter poet had the nerve to turn up. Regards, Seb Perry. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:33 AM jrovira@drew.edu using -f To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Essay problems: Re: Fundamentalism Message-ID: <1008598701.3c1dfead0752d@webmail.drew.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: jrovira@drew.edu References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu I maintain the page, so any problems with hyperlinks are all my fault. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll look into it as soon as I can. Jim Quoting Dwight Hines : > Thank you, This is an excellent essay. But I was not able to access > the > footnotes and also have no idea when it was written. I have emailed > Dr. > Nicola about the problem but if anyone knows who to contact on the > broken > links, please let me know. > dh > > > From: Jim Rovira > snip > > > > If you'd like to read an interesting paper delivered at Rollins > College by > > Dr. Daniel DeNicola (philosophy, tends to prefer Dewey) describing > the > > similarities between feminist and homosexual advocacy groups and > Christian > > and Muslim fundamentalists in attitudes and approach, go to: > > > > http://www.jamesrovira.20m.com/bewitchd.htm > > > > The paper is titled: "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered: > Reflections on > > Art, Fundamentalism, and Democracy." > > > > Jim > > > > > > From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:09 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: oddity Let me say quickly that I believe all thinking and reading Americans are aware that our government has made some unwise moves, and that our great power makes our unwise moves reverberate throughout the world. Many of us let our congressmen have the full benefit of our accumulated dissatisfaction. To get back to Milton and his contemporaries, let's read again the words of my very distant ancestor, the early Baptist Roger Williams: "It is the will and command of God, that (since the coming of his Son, the Lord Jesus) a permission of the most paganish, Jewish, Turkish, or Antichristian consciences and worships, be granted to all men in all nations and countries: and they are only to be fought against with that sword which is only (in soul matters) able to conquer, to wit, the sword of God's Spirit, the Word of God." >From The Bloody Tenet of Persecution for the Cause of Conscience Rose Williams From: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:36 AM jrovira@drew.edu using -f To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Message-ID: <1008598938.3c1dff9a2799a@webmail.drew.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:22:18 -0500 (EST) From: jrovira@drew.edu References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Those interested in continuing the topic off-thread can do so by joinging the Yahoo group: Academics about current events. For subscription information, please e-mail jrovira@drew.edu Jim Quoting Seb Perry : > > Okay, I don't want to seem like a party-pooper but might I > respectfully > suggest this forum isn't best suited to the topic under discussion? > Obviously I'm delighted that academics are climbing down from their > ivory > towers to talk about some serious issues, and I'm sure both parties > have > well-reasoned, sincere and convincing arguments to make. It's just that > this > type of debate inevitably descends into squabbling and accusations of > "stupidity" and "offensiveness" and becomes, well, boring. > > Regards, > > Seb Perry. > > > >From: Tmsandefur@aol.com > >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > >To: milton-l@richmond.edu, cbcox@ilstu.edu > >Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading > >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:31:57 EST > > > >< leaders of > >which have for 50 years terrorized the world. > >Carrol >> > > > >Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that > defeated the > >specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the > bloodiest > >dictatorship in the history of humanity? > >(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and > clothing > >the > >victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > > > >I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to > seem > >like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because > they're > >stupid > >and offensive. > > > >Timothy Sandefur > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > From: Seb Perry [sebperry@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 8:25 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton Julia Griffin wrote: >Dr. Perry's comments on Bloom I'm flattered that my observations carry such a scholarly air, but I am in fact plain old 'Mr'. Give me a chance, though - I'm only 22. >reminded me somehow of Max Beerbohm's ballade of self-consolation (not >its >title, which I forget), which ends with the >envoi: >Milton, my help, my prop, my stay, >My well of English undefiled! >It struck me suddenly today: >YOU must have been AN AWFUL child. Thanks for that. I'm also reminded of another Beerbohm quip, this time from *Zuleika Dobson*. It no doubt explains my attitude to Bloom: "The dullard's envy of brilliant men is always assuaged by the suspicion that they will come to a bad end." Regards, Seb. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:13 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading . And then we wonder why the revolutionary government identified the > US as "the great Satan." We acted like it. We might also remember the recent television reports in which Hollywood moguls were boasting that every Muslim country sees our movies. Have we stopped to consider how Hollywood portrays Americans? Depraved, selfish, murderous, foul ---these are the Americans the faraway lands see. Rose Williams From: Roy Flannagan [roy@gwm.sc.edu] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:25 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Comus on tape? There is a 1968 recording of the masque, along with excerpts of Samson Agonistes, on vinyl on the Argo label, monaural, RG 544/5. The youngish Ian Holm plays Comus, oilily, and Barbara Jefford, William Squire, Tony Church, Margaret Rawlings, Denis McCarthy, Patrick Garland, and Gary Watson perform in the masque or SA. George Rylands directed. I have a copy, but I have no idea where another one might be obtained. Roy Flannagan From: Seb Perry [sebperry@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:20 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Okay, I don't want to seem like a party-pooper but might I respectfully suggest this forum isn't best suited to the topic under discussion? Obviously I'm delighted that academics are climbing down from their ivory towers to talk about some serious issues, and I'm sure both parties have well-reasoned, sincere and convincing arguments to make. It's just that this type of debate inevitably descends into squabbling and accusations of "stupidity" and "offensiveness" and becomes, well, boring. Regards, Seb Perry. >From: Tmsandefur@aol.com >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu >To: milton-l@richmond.edu, cbcox@ilstu.edu >Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:31:57 EST > ><which have for 50 years terrorized the world. >Carrol >> > >Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the >specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest >dictatorship in the history of humanity? >(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing >the >victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > >I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem >like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're >stupid >and offensive. > >Timothy Sandefur > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From: Julia Griffin [juliabgriffin@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:21 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton Dr. Perry's comments on Bloom reminded me somehow of Max Beerbohm's ballade of self-consolation (not its title, which I forget), which ends with the envoi: Milton, my help, my prop, my stay, My well of English undefiled! It struck me suddenly today: YOU must have been AN AWFUL child. Julia Griffin _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From: James Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 6:11 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading No, Carol says things like this because she's informed about some of the realities of US involvement overseas. What we did in and to Panama, killing hundreds of civilians and essentially pre-empting the soverignty of the country, was completely shameless. We've supported every two bit dictator across the planet across the face of the earth in our fight against communism, and have supported terrible human rights abuses indirectly that way as well. In Iran, we funded and trained the Shah who used our money and training to brutalize his own people. And then we wonder why the revolutionary government identified the US as "the great Satan." We acted like it. This doesn't justify the terrorist acts of the 11th or invalidate the legitimacy of US aggression in Afghanistan, but it's terribly -- immoral -- to be a voting US citizen and remain ignorant of US activities overseas since WW II. Jim Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > < which have for 50 years terrorized the world. > Carrol >> > > Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the > specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest > dictatorship in the history of humanity? > (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing the > victims of the rest of the world's dictators? > > I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem > like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're stupid > and offensive. > > Timothy Sandefur From: James Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 6:26 PM Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: How Milton Works I think the biggest weakness of Fish's Reader Response criticism is that it doesn't specify a reader -- it seems to assume a specific type of reader (one remarkably like Fish) without providing any justification for that assumption. The imagined reader, of course, can always be re-imagined to support the critic's reading, as well. Jim Boyd M Berry wrote: > I agree that the "history" of Milton criticism prior to Fish fuzzes some > matters. Among the first to move away from howitzer battles over the > nature of "Milton's God," were W. B. C Watkins and Joseph Summers. What a > relief they were! Fish pointed out to me that Summers involked Henry > James' idea of the "guilty reader" at the end of his first chapter, which > Fish built on. Surprised by Sin looked at the time like a New Critical > study by a guy from Yale. > > It is also worth recalling that Surprised by Sin did not propose the > "relativism" of reader-response criticism. Surprised by Sin proposes "the > best reading" for "the reader," whether a reader reacts that way or not. > Later, Fish would wonder about "the reader," but my recollection is that > Fish has always been after "the best reading," something which has > sometimes detracted a bit, for me, from his fascinating arguments. I have > in mind, for example, the book on Herbert. Oakes want to have it that > Fish has revolted from Fish, from "the main implications of his own > reader-response criticism: that the reader decides the meaning of a text. > . . ." I just don't see that. I think he has been doing pretty much the > same work all along. > > Boyd M. Berry > English Department > Virginia Commonwealth University > P. O. Box 842005 > Richmond Va. 23284 2005 > 804 828 1331 > Fax 804 828 8684 From: Boyd M Berry [bberry@mail1.vcu.edu] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:10 PM To: Jim Rovira Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: How Milton Works I agree that the "history" of Milton criticism prior to Fish fuzzes some matters. Among the first to move away from howitzer battles over the nature of "Milton's God," were W. B. C Watkins and Joseph Summers. What a relief they were! Fish pointed out to me that Summers involked Henry James' idea of the "guilty reader" at the end of his first chapter, which Fish built on. Surprised by Sin looked at the time like a New Critical study by a guy from Yale. It is also worth recalling that Surprised by Sin did not propose the "relativism" of reader-response criticism. Surprised by Sin proposes "the best reading" for "the reader," whether a reader reacts that way or not. Later, Fish would wonder about "the reader," but my recollection is that Fish has always been after "the best reading," something which has sometimes detracted a bit, for me, from his fascinating arguments. I have in mind, for example, the book on Herbert. Oakes want to have it that Fish has revolted from Fish, from "the main implications of his own reader-response criticism: that the reader decides the meaning of a text. . . ." I just don't see that. I think he has been doing pretty much the same work all along. Boyd M. Berry English Department Virginia Commonwealth University P. O. Box 842005 Richmond Va. 23284 2005 804 828 1331 Fax 804 828 8684 From: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:51 AM Dec 2001 13:35:40 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:35:40 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Appelbaum Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading To: milton-l@richmond.edu In-Reply-To: <16f.59a7da1.294a400d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things > like this just to seem > like brash original thinkers, or if they just say > them because they're stupid > and offensive. > > Timothy Sandefur > Maybe they just have a difference of opinion. ===== Robert Appelbaum English Department University of San Diego San Diego, CA 92110-2492 Visit my home page: www.geocities.com/r_appel/Robert.html And please forgive the commercial intrusion below: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 2:03 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: the art of memory I have memorized "Let it Be" through repeated hearings (both the words and the music) and can prompt them with the assistance of a score. James Clinton Cobelli@aol.com Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/13/2001 08:02 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: the art of memory And for the opera-lovers among us, how many of us know the lines a singer will sing, before he or she sings them? As well as the music that goes with them. I will boast (and this is irrelevant to Milton, I admit), but I have memorized Aida, Il Trovatore, and Norma through repeated hearings (both the words and the music) and can prompt them with the assistance of a score. Scott Grunow From: P J Stewart [philip.stewart@plant-sciences.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:42 AM To: Milton-l Subject: oddity Every internet group I've ever belonged to goes through periodic crises of heated denunciation. I hope my remark about America's 'oddity' is not to blame for the current outbreak of hostilities. What strikes me is that there is something very 17th-century about America. I'm sure that in the stage-coaches of Milton's England there were many Bible-reading passengers, and it struck me that my son's observation about the New York subway might tie in with the fact that 90% of this internet group seems to be American (my first milton-l e-mails of each day arrive in a rush at 1 pm Greenwich time, which is 8 am Eastern Standard Time). Do Americans feel a special empathy with 17th century literature? I would like to help to defuse the controversy about whether America has 'terrorized the world' for the last 50 years. Not the whole world perhaps, but I think the USA has genuinely terrified the Muslim world since 1948, when Truman recognized Israel 10 minutes after it had been declared, while his delegation at the UN was debating an American proposal for a UN trusteeship to succeed the UK Mandate. The colossal misjudgement of the Arab world that has characterized US Middle East policy ever since must surely be the modern version of the traditional Christians' idea that Muhammad was the Anti-Christ. After all, their only guide to post-New-Testament history was the Book of Revelation! And what about Milton? What would he have thought of Oliver Cromwell's remark "I had rather that Mohometanism were permitted amongst us than that one of God's children should be persecuted"? With Suleyman the Magnificent at the gates of Vienna, an Islamic Europe seemed a real possibility. Philip Stewart From: Dwight Hines [dwighthines@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:31 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Essay problems: Re: Fundamentalism Thank you, This is an excellent essay. But I was not able to access the footnotes and also have no idea when it was written. I have emailed Dr. Nicola about the problem but if anyone knows who to contact on the broken links, please let me know. dh > From: Jim Rovira snip > > If you'd like to read an interesting paper delivered at Rollins College by > Dr. Daniel DeNicola (philosophy, tends to prefer Dewey) describing the > similarities between feminist and homosexual advocacy groups and Christian > and Muslim fundamentalists in attitudes and approach, go to: > > http://www.jamesrovira.20m.com/bewitchd.htm > > The paper is titled: "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered: Reflections on > Art, Fundamentalism, and Democracy." > > Jim > > From: Carrol Cox [cbcox@ilstu.edu] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:35 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Those with "photographic memory" don't remember what they _read_; they remember the page and then read that image. For such a person it would be possible to "memorize" _PL_ without having ever actually "read" it. So such a person would not make any mistakes. I would take it this list's interest would be in those who memorized the poem's words rather than their appearance on the page. Carrol From: Roy Flannagan [roy@gwm.sc.edu] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:27 AM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Seventh International Milton Symposium, exchange of information : : X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) : Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Several people have suggested to me that it might be good to those planning to attend the Symposium to post information on Milton-L about travel from Savannah, about sharing rental cars, or about sharing rooms in Beaufort during the Symposium June 4-8, 2002. I hope Kevin wouldn't mind if announcements starting appearing on Milton-L, as in "Desperately seeking roommate for expensive B&B in Beaufort; must be female non-smoker," or "Would be glad to share my rental car from Savannah airport and back in exchange for gas money." Meanwhile, I would be glad to help anyone who needs specific information about various hotels and motels. I hope to release a registration form in early January with all costs listed, and the local Chamber of Commerce has volunteered to take credit card orders for the registration fee via an 800 number. The registration fee will also ask about food preferences, and it will list a "spousal" fee. Roy Flannagan, Director Seventh International Milton Symposium From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:05 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton Thanks, Seb. The phone analogy is excellent. The New York Knicks once had a player (Jerry Lucas) who had a photographic memory. He could and did memorize the telephone book. Once he'd proven it to a few reporters the novelty quickly wore off, and they scampered away in search of someone capable of supplying an interesting sound bite. (He was a less than dynamic interview on an unusually, articulate team that included a Rhodes scholar - Senator Bradley). The fact that Harold Bloom has a prodigious memory merits a passing mention in any discussion of the man or his work. I agree - if trapped in a room with someone reciting PL from memory, I'd be bored. However, I would not sit smiling for hours. Jim Clinton Seb Perry Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/13/2001 09:37 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: RE: memorizing Milton >From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com >> >That is correct. Harold Bloom, if one accepts the Yale myth, recited >"Dante's Inferno" and "Paradise Lost" shortly after arriving in New Haven. > These and other party tricks (reciting the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner >backwards) were "misread" as signs of erudition. Harold Bloom has often >commented on his ability to read extraordinarily fast and retain >everything. > At last, the voice of reason! I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't find such a feat all that amazing. Don't get me wrong - it's not that being able to memorise enormous chunks of text isn't impressive (though not much more so than being able to do the Times crossword on the tube!). Surely the point is that such a memory can be applied to learning any work. There's nothing intrinsically more awe-inspiring about knowing the Divine Comedy off by heart than being able to recite the telephone directory. At least the latter may come in handy if there's someone he needs to call. And besides, no-one seems to have realised that the sort of person who sets about doing this is probably a dreadful bore that you wouldn't want to have round for a dinner party. All it would take is one sycophant to ask for a demonstration and we'd be there for hours smiling politely. Seb Perry. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:26 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Probably the latter. Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/13/2001 12:31 PM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu, cbcox@ilstu.edu cc: Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading <> Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest dictatorship in the history of humanity? (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing the victims of the rest of the world's dictators? I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're stupid and offensive. Timothy Sandefur From: Duncan Kinder [duncan@neoclassicists.net] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:27 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton "Surely the point is that such a memory can be applied to learning any work. There's nothing intrinsically more awe-inspiring about knowing the Divine Comedy off by heart than being able to recite the telephone directory. At least the latter may come in handy if there's someone he needs to call." Mark Twain, in Life on the Mississippi, stated that river boat pilots had memorized the entire river - every bend, every sand bar, the precise depth of each location, everything. It was entirely possible, indeed quite routine, for a river boat pilot in pitch dark midnight to come to the pilot cabin, stand there for a few moments observing how the boat proceeded in total darkness, and tell precisely where on the river it was. Despite their acquiring this skill, pilots had no greater aptitude for remembering anything else, Twain stated. Duncan C. Kinder duncan@neoclassicists.net From: John Leonard [jleonard@uwo.ca] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:45 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <004401c1845c$55af6420$5d20998d@computer> Subject: Re: Comus on tape? Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:01:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu There is, or at least used to be, a cassette put out by the BBC. There was also another, by the Argo record company. Both are good and use the music by Henry Lawes. John Leonard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Beth Fields" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:01 AM Subject: Re: Comus on tape? > > As part of Dr. Burbery's class that did this reading, I wanted to write = > and say that this would be a fabulous resource. The dramatic reading = > helped a great of us (his students) understand and appreciate the work. = > In fact, before hearing it orally, I did not like the masque at all. By = > the time we finished, I thought it was a great deal of fun. =20 > > If anyone knows of an audio recording of Milton's masque on tape or CD = > or if a performance is somewhere out there on VHS or DVD, I would be = > interested in hearing about it. > > Mary Beth > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Burbery, Timothy=20 > To: 'milton-l@richmond.edu'=20 > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:44 PM > Subject: Comus on tape? > > > > Dear List: > > My Milton students just did a dramatic reading of Comus, and I got to > wondering if there are any audio recordings of the masque on tape ... = > Does > anyone know? > > Thanks, > > Tim Burbery > Marshall University From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:32 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Bible reading Rose, Good point. JC Rose Williams Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/13/2001 05:12 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Bible reading If one truly believes that our leaders have "terrorized the world" for the last 50 years, can that person be surprised if we common folk are reading the Bible? RW From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:01 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Uhhhh . . . Seb . . . I'm afraid that (as no one else seems to have pointed out), the author himself was "the sort of person who sets about doing this [memorizing _Paradise Lost_, who therefore in your estimation was] probably a dreadful bore that you wouldn't want to have round for a dinner party. All it would take is one sycophant to ask for a demonstration and we'd be there for hours smiling politely." John Milton has been welcome at my table for years, and I have often fallen asleep over his text (especially when studying for my orals), though never out of boredom . . . I think I might do more than smile politely, were he there to offer to recite it. (Those who doubt the blind poet had his work by heart are welcome to check the matrix of parallel and self-referential lines on EMLS; there is no way he could have accomplished all that without the same incredible mnemonic power customarily attributed to that other blind poet.) They say we use 20% of our actual mental capacities, in the modern world, especially when it comes to the ability to memorize . . . (now, what did I come into this post for . . .?) Merry Christmas, Happy Channukah, and best wishes to all for the New Year, Carol Barton From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:07 AM To: Milton-List Subject: End of semester bloopers As long as we're on the topic of Bible reading, I thought some of you might enjoy two items from the final exam in my Literary Study of the Bible course. (These miscues are offered as comic relief only, and in full appreciate of my own shortcomings.) One student wrote in all earnestness that one of the three best things she learned during the semester was about the book of Tobit. She had never heard about it, she said, but now whenever Tobit comes up in casual conversation, she'll be able to jump right in. Another student described the parable of the Good Samaritan. We've gotten in all wrong, apparently. According to this student, it is Jesus himself who gets beaten up, and lies there while the priest, the Levite, AND the Samaritan all pass him by. Finally a woman comes up to him, but he forgives her and tells her to go and sin no more. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax From: Soubhi Nayal [nayalsoubhi@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:34 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: the art of memory Dear Sir, Allow me to congratulate u for the extraordinary memory u have. Knock on wood as they say. It will be a great pleasure for me to cooperate one day with u and present such great works of art together . Dr. S. Nayal , >From: Cobelli@aol.com >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >Subject: Re: the art of memory >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:02:04 EST > > > And for the opera-lovers among us, how many of us know > the lines a singer will sing, before he or she sings them? > As well as the music that goes with them. > >I will boast (and this is irrelevant to Milton, I admit), but I have >memorized Aida, Il Trovatore, and Norma through repeated hearings (both the >words and the music) and can prompt them with the assistance of a score. > >Scott Grunow > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: Mary Beth Fields [auntmary@eastky.net] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:01 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Comus on tape? As part of Dr. Burbery's class that did this reading, I wanted to write = and say that this would be a fabulous resource. The dramatic reading = helped a great of us (his students) understand and appreciate the work. = In fact, before hearing it orally, I did not like the masque at all. By = the time we finished, I thought it was a great deal of fun. =20 If anyone knows of an audio recording of Milton's masque on tape or CD = or if a performance is somewhere out there on VHS or DVD, I would be = interested in hearing about it. Mary Beth ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Burbery, Timothy=20 To: 'milton-l@richmond.edu'=20 Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: Comus on tape? Dear List: My Milton students just did a dramatic reading of Comus, and I got to wondering if there are any audio recordings of the masque on tape ... = Does anyone know? Thanks, Tim Burbery Marshall University From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 12:32 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu; cbcox@ilstu.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading <> Oh, I'm confused. Perhaps you're talking about the nation that defeated the specter of international communist totalitarianism--you know, the bloodiest dictatorship in the history of humanity? (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)--not to mention feeding and clothing the victims of the rest of the world's dictators? I wonder if people say stupid and offensive things like this just to seem like brash original thinkers, or if they just say them because they're stupid and offensive. Timothy Sandefur From: Scott, Hil [hscott@richmond.edu] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:29 AM To: 'Mac-Users@richmond.edu' Subject: RE: Older Macs Rick, I have two Mac 9600s. One for the Media 100 system and one for the Video Encyclopedia of the 20th Century. The OS for each cannot go any higher and still run their programs, so upgrading to G4s would not really be necessary. Thanks, Hil -----Original Message----- From: Teller, Rick [mailto:rteller@richmond.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:26 AM To: 'mac-users@richmond.edu ' Subject: Older Macs In an effort to streamline our support of the Mac user community we need to know from you if have an Apple computer that is is not a G3 or above (i.e. 9600, 8500, 7400, etc) and if it is used as your primary or secondary computer. Please get back to me with this information so that we may consider its replacement. Thank you Rick Teller From: Duran, Angelica [ADuran@sla.purdue.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:06 AM To: 'milton-l@richmond.edu' Subject: memorable teachers and words Hello, I must exhibit Stephen Booth's influence in my approach to Milton (Booth was my master's degree advisor). I agree that Milton's works are difficult to memorize and I believe that difficulty to be part of the glory of his works. The actor who played Comus at the Folger's presentation of A Masque in Spring 2000 said that the masque was much harder to memorize than were Shakespeare's works and that the difficulty made him focus on the content more than on the sound. Adios, Angelica Duran Assistant Professor Department of English Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 (765) 496-3957 > ---------- > From: Boyd M Berry > Reply To: milton-l@richmond.edu > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:37 PM > To: milton-l@richmond.edu > Cc: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > Subject: Re: > > I'm sure some people have memorized Paradise Lost, and after all these > years I carry a fair amount around in my head. Still I once urged at a > Milton conference in Buffalo that Paradise Lost is not memorable (hisses > arose). I probably did not go at it well. I was working from Wimsatt's > rhetorical position--where he says the sense seeps down through the lilnes > (haven't text with me). Clearly, the contrast between Paradise Lost and, > on the one hand, Faerie Queene and on the other Lucy Hutchinson's Order > and Disorder shows how much more difficult PL is to memorize. Take the > procession of the 7 Deadly Sins in book 1, canto 4, with three stanzas to > each. Once you see that pattern, made verbally very clear, you have a > start on that passage. Perhaps some of this owes to the influence of ny > senior tutor, Stephen Booth, who was trying to memorize Shakespeare's > sonnets as a graduate student when I encountered him. I've long felt PL > is a kprint-culture work, one which, to work, one wants to be in the > position of going back to look it up again. > > Boyd M. Berry > English Department > Virginia Commonwealth University > P. O. Box 842005 > Richmond Va. 23284 2005 > 804 828 1331 > Fax 804 828 8684 > > > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Sara van den Berg wrote: > > > In addition to Harold Bloom (whose memory is prodigious), Douglas Bush > is > > said to have memorized Paradise Lost while he took the MTA to Harvard > > every day. Supposedly the rhythm of the wheels was very helpful. Sara > van > > den Berg owner-milton-l@richmond.edu wrote: >ugrad20.uconn.edu > > >Message-Id: >X-Sender: gkneidel@uconnvm.uconn.edu >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM > > Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:32:37 -0500 >To: > > milton-l@richmond.edu >From: greg kneidel >Subject: Re: NPR appearance > of > > . . . John Milton! >In-Reply-To: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: > > text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Sender: > > owner-milton-l@richmond.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: > > milton-l@richmond.edu > >Mr. Bassinger's website > > > >http://www.paradiselostperformances.org/ > > >yrs, gk > >At 03:32 PM > > 12/6/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to > > Neil Conan, in a program devoted > >to memory and memorization, who > just > > interviewed a gent named John > >Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has > > memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting > >it this weekend at a college > > at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you > >know of someone, perhaps > a > > professional actor, who has memorized the whole > >thing. I remember > > hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, > >who lived > in > > isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem > >back in > the > > mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton > >Quarterly, > for > > his heroism. Roy Flannagan > > > > From: Derek Wood [dwood@stfx.ca] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 12:15 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: the art of memory Stella Revard wrote: > .... > > And for the opera-lovers among us, how many of us know > the lines a singer will sing, before he or she sings them? > As well as the music that goes with them.... > I meant to mention in my earlier message: my dear deceased father-in-law, who didn't drive, had heard that drivers sometimes fall asleep at the wheel. So late one night and into the early hours as we drove home from Milan, he recited the Divine Comedy, all of which he knew by heart. He was not an academic. In fact he worked in a bank. He also knew several opera libretti (only Verdi, not Wagner, Stella). It was extremely irritating. As for Milton, I met some American students in Oxford when I was finishing my thesis and one, from Cornell, was very impressed when he heard my tutor was John Carey, his seminar teacher. "Do you know that guy can recite whole pages from Milton without the book from anywhere you suggest." dw From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 5:13 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Bible reading If one truly believes that our leaders have "terrorized the world" for the last 50 years, can that person be surprised if we common folk are reading the Bible? RW From: Larry Isitt [isitt@cofo.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:17 AM To: Carrol Cox; milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: odd Bible-reading & casual slander of America id fBDFKEZ01304 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Carrol Cox writes about America (in part): But still, you have to expect a lot of oddity in a nation the leaders of which have for 50 years terrorized the world. Carrol, do you really mean to slander America in this casual fashion, especially in light of true terrorism of the Taliban and Hezbullah and Islamic Jihad and similar groups? Do you actually believe what you write here, that we are "terrorists" to the wellbeing of the rest of the world? If you really believe so, perhaps you would like to go further and revise the above statement to read, "for 50 years [America has] Talibanized the world." I hope I am misreading you, but you cannot make a statement about our leaders and think it does not apply to America and the American culture to which you refer. We are not a culture of terror in the sense of what is now going on in the world since Sep 11, and the term should not be so casually used. Larry Isitt English Dept. College of the Ozarks Point Lookout, MO 65726 417-334-6411, Ext. 4269 email: isitt @ cofo.edu <4.2.0.58.20011210184157.0096fca0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Norman Burns wrote: > > I was charmed by P.J. Stewart's remark that "there seems to be > something odd about America." I recalled Pope's "What oft was thought, but > ne'er so well expres't" and my own doubtless cranky but prolix regrets that > the baseball season had come to an end with "God Bless America" > relentlessly replacing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" during the > seventh-inning stretch. "Odd" seemed to me to capture much of how I relate > to my native culture. > There are many strands to that culture. According to an account I read someplace, Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land Is Your Land" in revulsion to having heard "God Bless America" over the radio. He stormed angrily into his producer's studio the next morning to record it -- and both felt that it would never be popular. Partly correctly, as Ochs in effect noted: And now they sing his praises on every foreign shore, But so few remember what he was fighting for. Why sing the songs and forget about the aim? He wrote them for a reason, why not sing them for the same. Or from over 70 years ago, by Aunt Molly Jackson, The bosses ride on a big white horse, While we walk in the mud. Their flag's the old red, white, and blue While ours is dipped in blood. But still, you have to expect a lot of oddity in a nation the leaders of which have for 50 years terrorized the world. Carrol From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:53 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Fundamentalism I'd agree that Milton was pretty far from the fundamentalist mindset, but I don't know that fundamentalists are opposed to "knowledge" in any absolute way. I would say they distrust certain sources of knowledge. Christian fundamentalists tend to emphasize belief over experience (where Christian Evangelicals, who share virtually identical beliefs, emphasize being "born again," or getting "saved," or "having a personal experience with Jesus Christ" - experience over belief). Evangelicals would tend to like Dr. Laura, while a true fundamentalist would be monitoring her as closely as do the some members of the homosexual community for the slightest misstep. They'd find some of Dr. Laura's comments agreeable, but would tend to emphasize what she's not saying "right," distrusting those who speak from outside their own theoretical paradigms (as do some outspoken members of the homosexual community -- anyone who criticizes them must be guilty of "homophobia," and can't possibly be motivated by anything else). What's disturbing to me isn't the limitations fundamentalists place on their belief structures, or that their belief structure isn't subject to self criticism (they are, after all, free to hold whatever beliefs they choose), but that academia tends to use the word "fundamentalism" to describe anyone they don't like, and tend to be as intolerant towards those labeled "fundamentalist" as the fundamentalists are accused of being themselves. If you'd like to read an interesting paper delivered at Rollins College by Dr. Daniel DeNicola (philosophy, tends to prefer Dewey) describing the similarities between feminist and homosexual advocacy groups and Christian and Muslim fundamentalists in attitudes and approach, go to: http://www.jamesrovira.20m.com/bewitchd.htm The paper is titled: "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered: Reflections on Art, Fundamentalism, and Democracy." Jim Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > > < Timothy, I think, described, but they're also well educated, > compassionate, and hardly fit your description...>> > > Although it's terribly off-topic, I'll say that I agree with that. As an > Objectivist, I am the farthest thing from a fundamentalist Christian, but I > still find myself frequently agreeing with her advice. > > I think I would define a fundamentalist as a person who believes that > knowledge itself, and toleration, is dangerous, and must be avoided--that > there is one best way in life, and it must be followed at all cost. If you > have seen the movie PLEASANTVILLE, fundamentalists are the folks depicted as > black-and-white--and liking it that way. They believe in original sin--that > eating the apple in Eden was the greatest of all evils, and man was better > not knowing. Although Milton of course makes this act the great fall at the > center of the poem, I still cannot believe that the man who wrote > AREOPAGITICA actually beileved that ignorance was bliss; I don't know if > Blake was right that Milton had sympathy for the devil, but I certainly think > there's a reason that Raphael sounds so...lame when he says > > Solicit not thy thoughts with matters hid, > Leave them to God above, him serve and feare; > Of other Creatures, as him pleases best, > Wherever plac't, let him dispose: joy thou > In what he gives to thee, this Paradise > And thy faire Eve; Heav'n is for thee too high > To know what passes there; be lowlie wise: (8: 167-173) > > How contradictory that is to the Milton who wrote > > "many there be that complain of divin Providence for suffering Adam to > transgresse, foolish tongues! when God gave him reason, he gave him freedom > to choose, for reason is but choosing; he had bin else a meer artificiall > Adam, such an Adam as he is in the motions. We our selves esteem not of that > obedience, or love, or gift, which is of force: God therefore left him free, > set before him a provoking object, ever almost in his eyes herein consisted > his merit, herein the right of his reward, the praise of his abstinence.... > They are not skilfull considerers of human things, who imagin to remove sin > by removing the matter of sin...." > > I think the fundamentalist the person who would imagine to remove sin by > removing the matter of sin--namely knowledge. It was the fundamentalist who > turned the Greek word for an idea into the name of a devil--demon! > > Timothy Sandefur From: Tony Hill [tony.hill@umist.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:45 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading <4.2.0.58.20011210184157.0096fca0@pop3.norton.antivirus> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011210184157.0096fca0@pop3.norton.antivirus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Quoting Norman Burns : > I was charmed by P.J. Stewart's remark that "there seems to be > something odd about America." I recalled Pope's "What oft was thought, but > ne'er so well expres't" and my own doubtless cranky but prolix regrets that > the baseball season had come to an end with "God Bless America" > relentlessly replacing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" during the > seventh-inning stretch. "Odd" seemed to me to capture much of how I relate > to my native culture. > I was therefore a little jarred to have Tony Hill chide Stewart > (and, unwittingly, me) for not seeing that the Bible study was "a cultural > difference" and 'words like "odd" are value loaded' [and therefore > inappropriate? wrong?]. Can it be wrong to evaluate a difference? Is > evaluation wrong only when the difference is "cultural"? Is evaluation of > a cultural phenomenon only inappropriate if it is done by a person standing > outside the culture, so that Stewart should be taken to task though I > needn't be? Can I without fault think some behavior common among, say, > Texans to be "odd" even though I am not a Texan? How does a difference get > to be "cultural" and not, say, "political"? > Enough! I am not in the least offended, just bemused that > "cultural differences" can be thought of as a protected species. If I may > say so, I find that odd. > --Norm Burns > I sure would not set out to "chide" or offend anyone. In an early episode of "Star Trek" I remember Mr.Spock, complete with pointed ears and in this case a long black cloak (as a disguise) remark "odd" to Captain James T. Kirk as a slightly strange looking person passed them on the street of some city on some distant planet. Why do the words "heavily ironic" come to mind here? I know that value loaded words are not "inappropriate" in themselves and that they are things we cannot do without. They cannot of course be "wrong" anyway, it is not the words that we must consider in this connection but their usage. I wanted to point out that we do not have a behavioural paradigm to which we we can compare all other ways of behaving so that we can decide what is "odd" or not. I cannot regret having pointed that out and I regret it if it seemed like an attack.It was not. I said "cultural" difference because that was what I was meaning. If I had meant "political" difference that is what I would have said. We after all do all know the differences (and the similarities) between these terms. I believe I also pointed out the "oddness" of my own cultural milieu and please don't take my remarks in anything but a spirit of free enquiry and debate. Oddly; Tony. From: James Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:36 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Yep, very easy to miss tongue in cheek, yes :). All in the Family actually had some merit where Married with Children really didn't. I think the listeners I'm thinking of tend to enjoy Dr. Laura more along the lines of All in the Family rather than Married with Children...DL tends to emphasize family in ways they appreciate and understand. Jim CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > Jim > > A perfect example of the dangers of E-mail: the recipient has to visualize > the author's tongue in his cheek. Apologies to your well educated, > compassionate acquaintenances "who enjoy her show." Perhaps they enjoy > the show in much the same way that well educated, compassionate people > enjoyed "All in the Family" in the seventies or "Married with Children" in > the eighties. > > Jim > > Jim Rovira > Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > 12/11/2001 08:58 AM > Please respond to milton-l > > To: milton-l@richmond.edu > cc: > Subject: Re: > > Isn't that the type of response you'd get from knee jerk neanderthals? > If we act like the people we criticize, aren't we showing ourselves to > be even worse than them? > > I know a few people who enjoy her show, and they fit the demographics > Timothy, I think, described, but they're also well educated, > compassionate, and hardly fit your description... > > Jim > > CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > > > > Her show's demographics ? Knee-jerk neanderthals. > > From: Seb Perry [sebperry@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:38 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton >From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com >> >That is correct. Harold Bloom, if one accepts the Yale myth, recited >"Dante's Inferno" and "Paradise Lost" shortly after arriving in New Haven. > These and other party tricks (reciting the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner >backwards) were "misread" as signs of erudition. Harold Bloom has often >commented on his ability to read extraordinarily fast and retain >everything. > At last, the voice of reason! I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't find such a feat all that amazing. Don't get me wrong - it's not that being able to memorise enormous chunks of text isn't impressive (though not much more so than being able to do the Times crossword on the tube!). Surely the point is that such a memory can be applied to learning any work. There's nothing intrinsically more awe-inspiring about knowing the Divine Comedy off by heart than being able to recite the telephone directory. At least the latter may come in handy if there's someone he needs to call. And besides, no-one seems to have realised that the sort of person who sets about doing this is probably a dreadful bore that you wouldn't want to have round for a dinner party. All it would take is one sycophant to ask for a demonstration and we'd be there for hours smiling politely. Seb Perry. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:02 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: the art of memory And for the opera-lovers among us, how many of us know the lines a singer will sing, before he or she sings them? As well as the music that goes with them. I will boast (and this is irrelevant to Milton, I admit), but I have memorized Aida, Il Trovatore, and Norma through repeated hearings (both the words and the music) and can prompt them with the assistance of a score. Scott Grunow From: Colin Burrow [cjb1002@cam.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:40 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton Bloom? Mistakes? Surely not. Colin Burrow, Fellow and Tutor, Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge CB2 1TA Tel. 01223-332483 email: cjb1002@cam.ac.uk web: http://www.english.cam.ac.uk/homepage/cjbhome.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu [mailto:owner-milton-l@richmond.edu]On Behalf Of Norman Burns Sent: 12 December 2001 16:29 To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Who has ever tested it? Surely he makes some mistakes. --Norm Burns At 12:25 PM 12/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >. > > > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with >The > > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > > Dick Hardin > > > >Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? From: Carrol Cox [cbcox@ilstu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:59 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading <4.2.0.58.20011210184157.0096fca0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Norman Burns wrote: > > I was charmed by P.J. Stewart's remark that "there seems to be > something odd about America." I recalled Pope's "What oft was thought, but > ne'er so well expres't" and my own doubtless cranky but prolix regrets that > the baseball season had come to an end with "God Bless America" > relentlessly replacing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" during the > seventh-inning stretch. "Odd" seemed to me to capture much of how I relate > to my native culture. > There are many strands to that culture. According to an account I read someplace, Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land Is Your Land" in revulsion to having heard "God Bless America" over the radio. He stormed angrily into his producer's studio the next morning to record it -- and both felt that it would never be popular. Partly correctly, as Ochs in effect noted: And now they sing his praises on every foreign shore, But so few remember what he was fighting for. Why sing the songs and forget about the aim? He wrote them for a reason, why not sing them for the same. Or from over 70 years ago, by Aunt Molly Jackson, The bosses ride on a big white horse, While we walk in the mud. Their flag's the old red, white, and blue While ours is dipped in blood. But still, you have to expect a lot of oddity in a nation the leaders of which have for 50 years terrorized the world. Carrol From: tristan saldana [hbeng175@csun.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:45 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Harold Bloom is hard to believe period. On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, John Leonard wrote: > . > > > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with > The > > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > > Dick Hardin > > > > Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? > > From: Boyd M Berry [bberry@mail1.vcu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:38 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: I'm sure some people have memorized Paradise Lost, and after all these years I carry a fair amount around in my head. Still I once urged at a Milton conference in Buffalo that Paradise Lost is not memorable (hisses arose). I probably did not go at it well. I was working from Wimsatt's rhetorical position--where he says the sense seeps down through the lilnes (haven't text with me). Clearly, the contrast between Paradise Lost and, on the one hand, Faerie Queene and on the other Lucy Hutchinson's Order and Disorder shows how much more difficult PL is to memorize. Take the procession of the 7 Deadly Sins in book 1, canto 4, with three stanzas to each. Once you see that pattern, made verbally very clear, you have a start on that passage. Perhaps some of this owes to the influence of ny senior tutor, Stephen Booth, who was trying to memorize Shakespeare's sonnets as a graduate student when I encountered him. I've long felt PL is a kprint-culture work, one which, to work, one wants to be in the position of going back to look it up again. Boyd M. Berry English Department Virginia Commonwealth University P. O. Box 842005 Richmond Va. 23284 2005 804 828 1331 Fax 804 828 8684 On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Sara van den Berg wrote: > In addition to Harold Bloom (whose memory is prodigious), Douglas Bush is > said to have memorized Paradise Lost while he took the MTA to Harvard > every day. Supposedly the rhythm of the wheels was very helpful. Sara van > den Berg owner-milton-l@richmond.edu wrote: >ugrad20.uconn.edu > >Message-Id: >X-Sender: gkneidel@uconnvm.uconn.edu >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM > Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:32:37 -0500 >To: > milton-l@richmond.edu >From: greg kneidel >Subject: Re: NPR appearance of > . . . John Milton! >In-Reply-To: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: > text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Sender: > owner-milton-l@richmond.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: > milton-l@richmond.edu > >Mr. Bassinger's website > > >http://www.paradiselostperformances.org/ > > >yrs, gk > >At 03:32 PM > 12/6/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to > Neil Conan, in a program devoted > >to memory and memorization, who just > interviewed a gent named John > >Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has > memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting > >it this weekend at a college > at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you > >know of someone, perhaps a > professional actor, who has memorized the whole > >thing. I remember > hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, > >who lived in > isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem > >back in the > mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton > >Quarterly, for > his heroism. Roy Flannagan > From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 9:21 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Yes, I do. My father-in-law (a colleague and close friend of Harolds) witnessed it. jc John Leonard Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/11/2001 12:25 PM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: memorizing Milton . > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with The > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > Dick Hardin > Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:27 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Fundamentalism <> Although it's terribly off-topic, I'll say that I agree with that. As an Objectivist, I am the farthest thing from a fundamentalist Christian, but I still find myself frequently agreeing with her advice. I think I would define a fundamentalist as a person who believes that knowledge itself, and toleration, is dangerous, and must be avoided--that there is one best way in life, and it must be followed at all cost. If you have seen the movie PLEASANTVILLE, fundamentalists are the folks depicted as black-and-white--and liking it that way. They believe in original sin--that eating the apple in Eden was the greatest of all evils, and man was better not knowing. Although Milton of course makes this act the great fall at the center of the poem, I still cannot believe that the man who wrote AREOPAGITICA actually beileved that ignorance was bliss; I don't know if Blake was right that Milton had sympathy for the devil, but I certainly think there's a reason that Raphael sounds so...lame when he says Solicit not thy thoughts with matters hid, Leave them to God above, him serve and feare; Of other Creatures, as him pleases best, Wherever plac't, let him dispose: joy thou In what he gives to thee, this Paradise And thy faire Eve; Heav'n is for thee too high To know what passes there; be lowlie wise: (8: 167-173) How contradictory that is to the Milton who wrote "many there be that complain of divin Providence for suffering Adam to transgresse, foolish tongues! when God gave him reason, he gave him freedom to choose, for reason is but choosing; he had bin else a meer artificiall Adam, such an Adam as he is in the motions. We our selves esteem not of that obedience, or love, or gift, which is of force: God therefore left him free, set before him a provoking object, ever almost in his eyes herein consisted his merit, herein the right of his reward, the praise of his abstinence.... They are not skilfull considerers of human things, who imagin to remove sin by removing the matter of sin...." I think the fundamentalist the person who would imagine to remove sin by removing the matter of sin--namely knowledge. It was the fundamentalist who turned the Greek word for an idea into the name of a devil--demon! Timothy Sandefur From: Duncan Kinder [duncan@neoclassicists.net] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:42 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <3C16111E.F6E7C29D@drew.edu> Subject: Neanderthal Spirituality Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:57:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu "I know a few people who enjoy her show, and they fit the demographics Timothy, I think, described, but they're also well educated, compassionate, and hardly fit your description...<< You misunderstand. There is an increasing body of evidence suggesting that Neanderthals were indeed, well-educated and compassionate. I suppose this, in turn, gives rise to the question of whether the Neanderthals were pre or post lapsarian. This leads us not only to consider the religious value of cave art but also to reconsider Rousseau's Noble Savage. The philosophic issues are mind-boggling. Duncan C. Kinder duncan@neoclassicists.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Rovira" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 5:58 AM Subject: Re: > Isn't that the type of response you'd get from knee jerk neanderthals? > If we act like the people we criticize, aren't we showing ourselves to > be even worse than them? > > I know a few people who enjoy her show, and they fit the demographics > Timothy, I think, described, but they're also well educated, > compassionate, and hardly fit your description... > > Jim > > CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > > > > Her show's demographics ? Knee-jerk neanderthals. > > > > > From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:19 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton For what it's worth, I gasped. James Clinton Cobelli@aol.com Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/11/2001 06:43 PM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: memorizing Milton In a message dated 12/11/2001 7:09:16 AM Central Standard Time, rhardin@ukans.edu writes: << I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with The Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. Dick Hardin >> One of my professors in my undergraduate years had memorized three Shakespeare plays: As You Like It, Hamlet, and The Tempest. I much enjoyed the gasp (horror or awe or a cathartic combination of both, though horror and awe are closely intertwined per Rudolf Otto) before the mention of memorizing The Faerie Queene. I am pretty certain I know someone, who has memorized Piers Plowman (B text). I'm not sure if that accomplishment warrants a gasp. Scott Grunow Non hai tu in Menfi, desiderii, speranze? From: Norman Boyer [boyer@sxu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:52 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Perhaps not every Bible reader on the subway is a "legitimate" Bible reader. I remember reading a few years ago about a woman who read the Bible on the New York subway, complete with rocking back and forth and mouthing the words, as a way of fending off unwanted intrusions from folks like panhandlers and purse snatchers. That perhaps reflects the more practical and inventive side of the American character. Norman Boyer Saint Xavier University From: Norman Burns [nburns@binghamton.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 11:29 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Who has ever tested it? Surely he makes some mistakes. --Norm Burns At 12:25 PM 12/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >. > > > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with >The > > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > > Dick Hardin > > > >Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? From: Dwight Hines [dwighthines@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:16 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton > >> I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with > The >> Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. >> Dick Hardin >> > > Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? > From: "John Leonard" I think Bloom would have grounds for a lawsuit for slander and defamation of character if he knew who accused him of such nonsense. d From: Judith Herz [jherz@vax2.concordia.ca] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:31 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton It's true...also translated some (maybe all) of it into Hebrew. Judith Herz John Leonard wrote: > . > > > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with > The > > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > > Dick Hardin > > > > Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:26 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: memorizing Milton That is correct. Harold Bloom, if one accepts the Yale myth, recited "Dante's Inferno" and "Paradise Lost" shortly after arriving in New Haven. These and other party tricks (reciting the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner backwards) were "misread" as signs of erudition. Harold Bloom has often commented on his ability to read extraordinarily fast and retain everything. JC "Hardin, Richard F" Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/10/2001 01:24 PM Please respond to milton-l To: "'milton-l@richmond.edu'" cc: Subject: RE: memorizing Milton I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with The Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. Dick Hardin -----Original Message----- From: Roy Flannagan [mailto:roy@gwm.sc.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:32 PM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: NPR appearance of . . . John Milton! I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to Neil Conan, in a program devoted to memory and memorization, who just interviewed a gent named John Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting it this weekend at a college at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you know of someone, perhaps a professional actor, who has memorized the whole thing. I remember hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, who lived in isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem back in the mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton Quarterly, for his heroism. Roy Flannagan From: Stella Revard [srevard@siue.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:43 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: the art of memory Harold Bloom is alive and well--and though a legend in himself is surely capable of giving us an answer. So rather than speculate, why not put the question to Bloom himself. Milton--it is said--had lines of Homer and Euripides by heart, but he is not here to ask and verify. But Bloom is. I suspect that many of us--after years of teaching--have whole sections of Milton, Shakespeare, and many other poets by heart, without ever making the effort to memorize. And for the opera-lovers among us, how many of us know the lines a singer will sing, before he or she sings them? As well as the music that goes with them. ---------- >From: "John Leonard" >To: >Subject: Re: memorizing Milton >Date: Tue, Dec 11, 2001, 11:25 AM > >. > > > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with >The > > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > > Dick Hardin > > > >Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? > From: Derek Wood [dwood@stfx.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:57 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton One of my fellow undergraduates at university had a photographic memory. The night before our Old English exam he read Beowulf and could quote every word of the O.E. original the next day. I felt quite pleased with being able to quote bits of Paradise Lost in the Milton paper: he quoted widely from Milton's Latin poems and, naturally, all the English poems. dw John Leonard wrote: > . > > > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with > The > > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > > Dick Hardin > > > > Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:10 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Jim A perfect example of the dangers of E-mail: the recipient has to visualize the author's tongue in his cheek. Apologies to your well educated, compassionate acquaintenances "who enjoy her show." Perhaps they enjoy the show in much the same way that well educated, compassionate people enjoyed "All in the Family" in the seventies or "Married with Children" in the eighties. Jim Jim Rovira Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/11/2001 08:58 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: Isn't that the type of response you'd get from knee jerk neanderthals? If we act like the people we criticize, aren't we showing ourselves to be even worse than them? I know a few people who enjoy her show, and they fit the demographics Timothy, I think, described, but they're also well educated, compassionate, and hardly fit your description... Jim CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > > Her show's demographics ? Knee-jerk neanderthals. > From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 7:59 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: Lycidas -- not very relevant Dr. Gilliatt, Yous summed it up. Very nice. James Clinton Cynthia Gilliatt Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/10/2001 11:15 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: FW: Lycidas -- not very relevant When I teach Greek myth and we get to Oedipus, I whistle "I want a girl, just like the girl, that married dear old Dad" as I hand out the quiz...Cynthia ------------------- Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, Good Lord, deliver us. Member, JMU Safe Zones English Department James Madison University MSC 1801 Harrisonburg VA 22807 From: Norman Burns [nburns@binghamton.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:55 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading I was charmed by P.J. Stewart's remark that "there seems to be something odd about America." I recalled Pope's "What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expres't" and my own doubtless cranky but prolix regrets that the baseball season had come to an end with "God Bless America" relentlessly replacing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" during the seventh-inning stretch. "Odd" seemed to me to capture much of how I relate to my native culture. I was therefore a little jarred to have Tony Hill chide Stewart (and, unwittingly, me) for not seeing that the Bible study was "a cultural difference" and 'words like "odd" are value loaded' [and therefore inappropriate? wrong?]. Can it be wrong to evaluate a difference? Is evaluation wrong only when the difference is "cultural"? Is evaluation of a cultural phenomenon only inappropriate if it is done by a person standing outside the culture, so that Stewart should be taken to task though I needn't be? Can I without fault think some behavior common among, say, Texans to be "odd" even though I am not a Texan? How does a difference get to be "cultural" and not, say, "political"? Enough! I am not in the least offended, just bemused that "cultural differences" can be thought of as a protected species. If I may say so, I find that odd. --Norm Burns >P J Stewart wrote [in part]: > > > My son has just come back from 18 months in New York (where he had his > > 25th birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being > > read in the subway trains was the Bible. In 62 years I have never seen the > > Bible being read on the London Underground. I hope I'll be pardoned > for saying > that there seems to be something odd about America. > > > Philip Stewart. >Tony Hill wrote [in part]: >Reading the Bible or Koran on the subway may seem "odd" but it is no "odder" >than a gentleman in a pin striped suit doing the "Times" crossword on the >London Underground, when you consider it. I think we have, here, a cultural >difference and words like "odd" are value loaded (saying in this case, if you >are not like me you are "odd" or as in my native Lancashire "all the world's >daft except thee and me and even thee's a bit queer"). From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 6:44 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton In a message dated 12/11/2001 7:09:16 AM Central Standard Time, rhardin@ukans.edu writes: << I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with The Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. Dick Hardin >> One of my professors in my undergraduate years had memorized three Shakespeare plays: As You Like It, Hamlet, and The Tempest. I much enjoyed the gasp (horror or awe or a cathartic combination of both, though horror and awe are closely intertwined per Rudolf Otto) before the mention of memorizing The Faerie Queene. I am pretty certain I know someone, who has memorized Piers Plowman (B text). I'm not sure if that accomplishment warrants a gasp. Scott Grunow Non hai tu in Menfi, desiderii, speranze? From: Sara van den Berg [vandens@SLU.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 3:58 PM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: In addition to Harold Bloom (whose memory is prodigious), Douglas Bush is said to have memorized Paradise Lost while he took the MTA to Harvard every day. Supposedly the rhythm of the wheels was very helpful. Sara van den Berg owner-milton-l@richmond.edu wrote: >ugrad20.uconn.edu >Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210113208.00a496e0@uconnvm.uconn.edu> >X-Sender: gkneidel@uconnvm.uconn.edu >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:32:37 -0500 >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >From: greg kneidel >Subject: Re: NPR appearance of . . . John Milton! >In-Reply-To: <200112101510.fBAFAMB13307@argyle.richmond.edu> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > >Mr. Bassinger's website > >http://www.paradiselostperformances.org/ > > >yrs, gk > >At 03:32 PM 12/6/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to Neil Conan, in a program devoted > >to memory and memorization, who just interviewed a gent named John > >Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting > >it this weekend at a college at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you > >know of someone, perhaps a professional actor, who has memorized the whole > >thing. I remember hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, > >who lived in isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem > >back in the mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton > >Quarterly, for his heroism. Roy Flannagan From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:59 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Isn't that the type of response you'd get from knee jerk neanderthals? If we act like the people we criticize, aren't we showing ourselves to be even worse than them? I know a few people who enjoy her show, and they fit the demographics Timothy, I think, described, but they're also well educated, compassionate, and hardly fit your description... Jim CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com wrote: > > Her show's demographics ? Knee-jerk neanderthals. > From: John Leonard [jleonard@uwo.ca] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 12:26 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton . > I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with The > Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. > Dick Hardin > Sounds impressive. Do you believe it? From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 12:13 PM To: Milton-List Subject: CFP: Early Modern Lives With apologies for cross- (or perhaps re-) posting, EARLY MODERN LIVES BIOGRAPHY AND AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF THE RENAISSANCE AND SEVENTEENTH CENTURY A conference organised by the Renaissance Research Group, Middlesex University June 26th-28th 2002. CALL FOR PAPERS 'Early Modern Lives' will examine the practice and theory of biographical writing in and about the Renaissance and Seventeenth Century. By bringing together those currently engaged in writing and studying biographies of this period, the conference aims to discuss the relationship between life-writing and our understanding of literature and cultural history. Speakers will include Katherine Duncan-Jones, Frances Harris, Michael Hunter, Lisa Jardine, Lois Potter, Alan Stewart, Blair Worden. The conference is being organised in response to the growing interest in biography, especially biography on the early modern period. The appearance of a number of major biographical projects, ranging from lives of individuals to the New Dictionary of National Biography is ample testimony to the importance and vitality of life-writing today. While the main focus of this conference will be literary biography, the scope of the conference will extend to historical biography, scientific and philosophical biography, and fictional biography. Topics to be covered will include women's lives, animal lives, the life of the mind, life-writing and subjectivity, the auto/biographical self. There will also be a session dedicated to the life of Shakespeare. Please send proposals for papers (350 words) to Dr Sarah Hutton, Renaissance Research Group, School of Humanities and Cultural Studies, Middlesex University, White Hart Lane, London N17 8HR. email S.Hutton@mdx.ac.uk. Deadline 31st January 2002 Dr Sarah Hutton Reader in Renaissance and Seventeenth-Century Studies, Middlesex University, School of Humanities and Cultural Studies, White Hart Lane, London N17 8HR Tel: (+44) 020 8362 5394 Email: S.Hutton@mdx.ac.uk From: Julia Griffin [juliabgriffin@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 12:07 PM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: memorizing Milton Isn't it one of the feats attributed to TB Macaulay? I thought so ... Julia Griffin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From: Harvey Wheeler [verulan@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:34 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu; boyer@sxu.edu Subject: Re: Fundamentalism(s) See Karen Armstrong's new book, The Battle For God. HW -----Original Message----- From: Norman Boyer To: milton-l@richmond.edu Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: Fundamentalism(s) >A former colleague of mine at Saint Xavier University (Chicago), Scott >Appleby, went on several years ago to be assistant head of the >Fundamentalisms Project at the University of Chicago under Martin >Marty. The project published at least three large volumes under their >editorship (and always with "Fundamentalism" or "Fundamentalisms" in the >title). Scott is now heading an institute at Nortr Dame and has regularly >shown up as a "resource person" on national TV. > >Norman Boyer > >At 02:29 PM 12/07/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > >Can any help me with a an attempt to get some working definition > >of "fundamentalism". I think one aspect must be a reliance upon the percieved > >literal meaning of scripture (whether Judaic, Christian or Islamic). I mean > >the > >idea that the text itself is the revelation and it is not "non- >propositional" > >in the theological sense (ie. it is not about the revelation it IS the > >revelation). Is this why many devout Muslims do not like to see the holy book > >translated (because of obvious difficulties with getting the full nuances of > >meaning of the original)? The same problem would apply to > >Bible "fundamentalists" in this sense. > > > >I am working my way around to the idea that Milton was NOT a >fundamentalist in > >the sense I refer to. His learning in languages might well have had led >him to > >suspect such "fundamentalism" I think. > > > >Tony. > From: Norman Boyer [boyer@sxu.edu] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:45 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Fundamentalism(s) A former colleague of mine at Saint Xavier University (Chicago), Scott Appleby, went on several years ago to be assistant head of the Fundamentalisms Project at the University of Chicago under Martin Marty. The project published at least three large volumes under their editorship (and always with "Fundamentalism" or "Fundamentalisms" in the title). Scott is now heading an institute at Nortr Dame and has regularly shown up as a "resource person" on national TV. Norman Boyer At 02:29 PM 12/07/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Can any help me with a an attempt to get some working definition >of "fundamentalism". I think one aspect must be a reliance upon the percieved >literal meaning of scripture (whether Judaic, Christian or Islamic). I mean >the >idea that the text itself is the revelation and it is not "non- propositional" >in the theological sense (ie. it is not about the revelation it IS the >revelation). Is this why many devout Muslims do not like to see the holy book >translated (because of obvious difficulties with getting the full nuances of >meaning of the original)? The same problem would apply to >Bible "fundamentalists" in this sense. > >I am working my way around to the idea that Milton was NOT a fundamentalist in >the sense I refer to. His learning in languages might well have had led him to >suspect such "fundamentalism" I think. > >Tony. From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:25 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading Tony-- Deborah Shuger only mentions Milton a few times in The Renaissance Bible (Berkeley, 1994), but she supports your point about his view of the Bible and interpretation. She groups him with Castellio and Hooker as "liberal theologians." They are all distinguished from "dogmatic Protestants" or "biblical humanists" like Luther, Bucer, Calvin, and Beza who come closer to your criterion for fundamentalism. This is really "biblical fundamentalism" and should be distinguished from other features of fundamentalist groups that may or may not go with it. I.e., radical apocalypticism and/or a desire to return--sometimes by revolutionary violence--to a "traditional" (non-pluralistic and/or agrarian) pre-modern theonomic social order. Dan Knauss Marquette University, Department of English daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~faerspel On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:29:25 +0000 Tony Hill writes: > Can any help me with a an attempt to get some working definition > of "fundamentalism". I think one aspect must be a reliance upon the > percieved > literal meaning of scripture (whether Judaic, Christian or Islamic). > I mean > the > idea that the text itself is the revelation and it is not "non- > propositional" > in the theological sense (ie. it is not about the revelation it IS > the > revelation). Is this why many devout Muslims do not like to see the > holy book > translated (because of obvious difficulties with getting the full > nuances of > meaning of the original)? The same problem would apply to > Bible "fundamentalists" in this sense. > > I am working my way around to the idea that Milton was NOT a > fundamentalist in > the sense I refer to. His learning in languages might well have had > led him to > suspect such "fundamentalism" I think. > > Tony. > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From: Hardin, Richard F [rhardin@ukans.edu] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:25 PM To: 'milton-l@richmond.edu' Subject: RE: memorizing Milton I seem to recall reading that Harold Bloom has memorized PL, along with The Prelude and (gasp) The Faerie Queene. Dick Hardin -----Original Message----- From: Roy Flannagan [mailto:roy@gwm.sc.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:32 PM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: NPR appearance of . . . John Milton! I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to Neil Conan, in a program devoted to memory and memorization, who just interviewed a gent named John Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting it this weekend at a college at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you know of someone, perhaps a professional actor, who has memorized the whole thing. I remember hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, who lived in isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem back in the mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton Quarterly, for his heroism. Roy Flannagan From: CLINTON_JAMES_JR_NONLILLY@Lilly.com Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:47 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Her show's demographics ? Knee-jerk neanderthals. Jim Rovira Sent by: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu 12/06/2001 09:11 AM Please respond to milton-l To: milton-l@richmond.edu cc: Subject: Re: Eh...isn't Dr. Laura Jewish? I know some pretty conservative Christians who like her show very much, but I'm not sure what the demographics for her show are. Jim Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > > < birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being read > in the subway trains was the Bible. >> > > I live in San Bernardino County, California, and ride a daily commuter train > an hour and a half to Orange County, a few minutes from Disneyland. Bible > reading VASTLY outweighs reading of any other book. I am very often the only > person in sight reading something other than the Bible. When a passenger is > not reading the Bible, he's often reading some lame take on the Bible by some > lame theologian. > > On one hand, such things--and other cultural phenomena, such as the > popularity of Dr. Laura Schlesinger's radio show--could be taken as evidence > of the rising popularity of fundamentalist Chrisianity. On the other hand, as > this article from REASON magazine points out > (http://www.reason.com/rauch/99_06_26.html) a lot of the Christian moralizing > that is going on is really just inflation of formerly dogmatic values into > smarminess and ultimately humane feel-goodism. Also, after the September 11 > attacks, there were reports that Americans were becoming more religious as > this article points out, that appears not to be true after all: > (http://www.charismanews.com/news.cgi?a=724&t=news.html) > > $ From: Timothy Wieneke [t_wieneke@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 10:32 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: If I remember correctly, Dr. Laura converted to Judaism. I don't believe she is Jewish by heritage. Tim >From: Jim Rovira >Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >Subject: Re: >Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:11:12 -0500 > >Eh...isn't Dr. Laura Jewish? I know some pretty conservative Christians >who like her show very much, but I'm not sure what the demographics for her >show are. > >Jim > >Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > > > > <his >25th > > birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being >read > > in the subway trains was the Bible. >> > > > > I live in San Bernardino County, California, and ride a daily commuter >train > > an hour and a half to Orange County, a few minutes from Disneyland. >Bible > > reading VASTLY outweighs reading of any other book. I am very often the >only > > person in sight reading something other than the Bible. When a >passenger is > > not reading the Bible, he's often reading some lame take on the Bible >by >some > > lame theologian. > > > > On one hand, such things--and other cultural phenomena, such as the > > popularity of Dr. Laura Schlesinger's radio show--could be taken as >evidence > > of the rising popularity of fundamentalist Chrisianity. On the other >hand, as > > this article from REASON magazine points out > > (http://www.reason.com/rauch/99_06_26.html) a lot of the Christian >moralizing > > that is going on is really just inflation of formerly dogmatic values >into > > smarminess and ultimately humane feel-goodism. Also, after the >September 11 > > attacks, there were reports that Americans were becoming more religious >as > > this article points out, that appears not to be true after all: > > (http://www.charismanews.com/news.cgi?a=724&t=news.html) > > > > $ > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:59 AM ugrad20.uconn.edu Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210113208.00a496e0@uconnvm.uconn.edu> X-Sender: gkneidel@uconnvm.uconn.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:32:37 -0500 To: milton-l@richmond.edu From: greg kneidel Subject: Re: NPR appearance of . . . John Milton! In-Reply-To: <200112101510.fBAFAMB13307@argyle.richmond.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Mr. Bassinger's website http://www.paradiselostperformances.org/ yrs, gk At 03:32 PM 12/6/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to Neil Conan, in a program devoted >to memory and memorization, who just interviewed a gent named John >Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting >it this weekend at a college at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you >know of someone, perhaps a professional actor, who has memorized the whole >thing. I remember hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, >who lived in isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem >back in the mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton >Quarterly, for his heroism. Roy Flannagan From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:25 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: <> Yes, but her audience is largely Christians, particularly fundamentalists who admire her Old Testament dogma. Timothy Sandefur From: Cynthia Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:15 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: Lycidas -- not very relevant When I teach Greek myth and we get to Oedipus, I whistle "I want a girl, just like the girl, that married dear old Dad" as I hand out the quiz...Cynthia ------------------- Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, Good Lord, deliver us. Member, JMU Safe Zones English Department James Madison University MSC 1801 Harrisonburg VA 22807 From: [ghmcloone@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 4:01 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Margaret Thickstun on transatlantic Puritans Margaret Thickstun's post of Feb. 27 on the significance of New England divines has put me in mind of Milton's first Cambridge tutor, William Chappell, who recommended them as reading for divinity students. In his Art of Preaching (1656), Chappell lists works by Thomas Shepard, Thomas Hooker and John Cotton under the heading, "On True Conversion." These famous New Englanders are the only authors he lists under the conversion heading, although his bibliography as a whole ("A Nomenclator of sundry Tracts, . . .) is dominated by English authors. (Both Perry Miller in The New England Mind and Daniel Shea in Spiritual Autobiography in Early America mention Chappell in this regard.) Milton could have known Thomas Shepard as well at Cambridge, whose attendance at Emmanuel partly coincided with Milton's years at Christ's. Shepard surely knew Stephen Basset, who was at Christ's with Milton, and in his autobiography cites Basset by name. The context is one of backsliding, drunkenness, and such "beastly carriage" as to rival that of the most prestigious American schools. George McLoone --- --- ghmcloone@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. From: Stella Revard [srevard@siue.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:00 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Advice about Milton mini-course for lay folks at church Dear Margaret, Many years ago I organized a reading of the Council in Heaven from Paradise Lost 3 for the lay group at the Methodist Church. It went over well with much interest in Milton's take on the theology of salvation and damnation. Regarding the recent discussion of Baptist Calvinists vs. Arminians, I remember my grandmother (born in south Georgia in 1875) referring to Hard Shell Baptists who believed, as she said, What MUST be SHALL be. That would mean, I suppose, that there were also Soft Shell Baptists, who took a less strict view--though I never heard the latter term. Stella Revard ---------- >From: "Arnold, Margaret" >To: "'milton-l@richmond.edu'" >Subject: Advice about Milton mini-course for lay folks at church >Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2001, 4:05 PM > >The pastor at our local American Baptist Church (more liberal than the >stereotypic Southern Baptists, and we observe the liturgical year, too) has >asked me to consider a series of four sessions or so on Milton's life and >work. He is the second pastor we've had who thinks that we base a good many >images and theological ideas on Paradise Lost rather than the scriptures >alone. Have any of you offered Miltonic instruction in Christian contexts? >Our audiences like audio-visual materials. Some will read well while others >will be intimidated. I'd welcome suggestions about sources and methods. > >Many thanks, > >Margaret Arnold >University of Kansas >Lawrence, KS 66045 > >785-864-2584 > From: Tony Hill [tony.hill@umist.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:29 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading <3C0E38F0.4C2A0839@tcnj.edu> In-Reply-To: <3C0E38F0.4C2A0839@tcnj.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Quoting Jean Graham : > <005f01c17cd4$f6c06740$452401a3@plants.ox.ac.uk> > Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > > Even though I'm near New York, I go there rarely. Did your son notice > the Bible-reading prior to 9/11, or is it a consequence? > > Jean Graham > > On a related note, I ordered something from Amazon.com a couple weeks > ago, and noticed that the Koran was on their list of top sellers (third > place, I think). > > P J Stewart wrote: > > > > My son has just come back from 18 months in New York (where he had his > 25th > > birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being > read > > in the subway trains was the Bible. In 62 years I have never seen the > Bible > > being read on the London Underground. I hope I'll be pardoned for saying > > that there seems to be something odd about America. > > Philip Stewart. Reading the Bible or Koran on the subway may seem "odd" but it is no "odder" than a gentleman in a pin striped suit doing the "Times" crossword on the London Underground, when you consider it. I think we have, here, a cultural difference and words like "odd" are value loaded (saying in this case, if you are not like me you are "odd" or as in my native Lancashire "all the world's daft except thee and me and even thee's a bit queer"). Can any help me with a an attempt to get some working definition of "fundamentalism". I think one aspect must be a reliance upon the percieved literal meaning of scripture (whether Judaic, Christian or Islamic). I mean the idea that the text itself is the revelation and it is not "non- propositional" in the theological sense (ie. it is not about the revelation it IS the revelation). Is this why many devout Muslims do not like to see the holy book translated (because of obvious difficulties with getting the full nuances of meaning of the original)? The same problem would apply to Bible "fundamentalists" in this sense. I am working my way around to the idea that Milton was NOT a fundamentalist in the sense I refer to. His learning in languages might well have had led him to suspect such "fundamentalism" I think. Tony. From: Kate Narveson [narveska@martin.luther.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:58 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Advice about Milton mini-course for lay folks at church I was asked to introduce Milton to an adult issues forum at a church some years back, and chose to focus on the "Nativity Ode" in part because the invitation came close to Christmas and in part because it seemed like a way to present much that's typical of Milton in a more manageable dose, and in a genre they'd be able to compare to Christmas carols and other treatments of the nativity. I was only allocated one hour-long session, but that session could have served to prepare the group for the ways Milton frames the Genesis narrative. The group was rapt - well, okay, fascinated and talkative and biblically literate. Kate Narveson Department of English Luther College At 04:05 PM 12/05/2001 -0600, you wrote: >The pastor at our local American Baptist Church (more liberal than the >stereotypic Southern Baptists, and we observe the liturgical year, too) has >asked me to consider a series of four sessions or so on Milton's life and >work. He is the second pastor we've had who thinks that we base a good many >images and theological ideas on Paradise Lost rather than the scriptures >alone. Have any of you offered Miltonic instruction in Christian contexts? >Our audiences like audio-visual materials. Some will read well while others >will be intimidated. I'd welcome suggestions about sources and methods. > >Many thanks, > >Margaret Arnold >University of Kansas >Lawrence, KS 66045 > >785-864-2584 From: P J Stewart [philip.stewart@plant-sciences.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 10:12 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <005f01c17cd4$f6c06740$452401a3@plants.ox.ac.uk> <3C0E3294.A622D273@drew.edu> Subject: Re: Re: Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:53:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu My son's observations were mostly made before September 11th. He definitely saw bibles; he used to peep at them when someone was reading next to him. Very often they were adorned with extensive marginal notes in various colours of ink. There is evidence from identical-twin studies that the predisposition to religious interests and behaviour is genetically controlled to the degre of about 70%. In that case the genes responsible must have been seriously depleted in Catholic Europe with its celibate priests, monks and nuns. When Protestant refugees from Europe left for America, perhaps they took with them a large part of the remaining stock of genes for religiosity. That would explain why so many Americans and so few Europeans go to church, read bibles in the subway, etc. Philip Stewart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Rovira" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: Re: > He may be mistaken about what kind of Bibles they were -- most of the time, > when I've looked closely, I've noticed that NYC subway passengers were > reading copies of the Koran. > > But given what just happened to NYC, I wouldn't be surprised if more of the > other type of Bibles were being carried around and read as well. > > Jim > > P J Stewart wrote: > > > > My son has just come back from 18 months in New York (where he had his 25th > > birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being read > > in the subway trains was the Bible. In 62 years I have never seen the Bible > > being read on the London Underground. I hope I'll be pardoned for saying > > that there seems to be something odd about America. > > Philip Stewart > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Cynthia Gilliatt" > > To: "Dr. Carol Barton" ; > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:54 PM > > Subject: Re: > > > > > -On Monday, December 03, 2001 6:58 AM -0500 "Dr. Carol Barton" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying > > out > > > > > slowly today? > > > > > > > > > > Not from what I've seen and read! > > > > > > > > Not nohow in Old Virginny, neither, Jameela, unless the > degeneration is > > so > > > > slowly as to be imperceptible. > > > > > > Agreed from here in the Valley - you should see the Letters to the Editor > > > in the local paper on topics ranging from Satanism in Harry Potter to > > > eee-vo-lu-shun to which day is the "real" Sabbath...so far, no Flat > > > Earthers, but I wouldn't be surprised... > > > Cynthia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------- > > > Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, > > > English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, > > > J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, > > > Good Lord, deliver us. > > > Member, JMU Safe Zones > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > English Department > > > James Madison University > > > MSC 1801 > > > Harrisonburg VA 22807 > > > > > > > > > > > > From: spender@uwindsor.ca Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 7:52 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: Lycidas Thanks much to all for very useful suggestions about 'Lycidas' and undergraduate reading. Best Stephen Dr. Stephen Pender, English, University of Windsor Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4 spender@uwindsor.ca From: whunter [whunter@mymailstation.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:53 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Stanley Fish An unappreciated problem with Stanley Fish's well-publicized new book is the error in its title, _How Milton Works_. It should be _How Fish Works_. From it we do not learn anything much that is new about Milton--the book is not likely to be cited very often for its discoveries about his works--but we do learn a great deal about Fish. Another hitherto unappreciated fact is that such reader-centered criticism, a major development that originated with his _Surprised by Sin_ of 1967 and is being recognized in its second edition by the Milton Society for its annual Hanford Award, has held a major position for years in the history of philosophy, though until Fish it had not been systematically applied to literary works. Originating with Bishop George Berkeley in the early 18th century, it asserts that reality is limited to our perception of it. As he wrote, esse est percepi. Subjective idealism, as it is called, did not turn out to be very productive in the history of philosophy, though it prompted others, most notably Kant, to develop means of coping with it. Such solipcism is not very illuminating of the literary works it considers as Fish and his followers have proved (for them, esse est legi) though it says much about its authors. Indeed, what this new book reveals is much more interesting than what it reveals about Milton. Thus, we discover, Fish now recognizes that literary texts do indeed have an objective existence that is worth consideration. One is reminded of how Dr. Johnson rejected the Berkleyan position. Boswell reports that "striking his foor with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it, [he said,] 'I refute it thus.'" Fish must be about Johnson's age then, 57, and he evidently is moving toward the strongly conservative position of the Doctor. It seems quite likely that his criticism, which like Johnson's touches many issues, will prove equally durable. W. B. Hunter From: Cynthia Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 9:46 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu; 'milton-l@richmond.edu' Cc: Arnold, Margaret Subject: Re: Advice about Milton mini-course for lay folks at church You might find it instructive to find a number of medieval and esp Renaissance and Baroque images of Adad and Eve at various points in their story to show how our visual imagination has supplemented, distorted, interpreted the very bare narrative in Genesis. I find that many of my undergraduate students - both in Milton and Bible as Lit courses - are astonished at how little is said in Gen - and that it does not mention 'original sin' and doesn't condemn sex - now Baptists I'd expect to know the text pretty well - I do adult Christian ed. at my church [Episcopal] and think this sounds like a good idea - would you mind sharing what you come up with? Thanks - Cynthia G ------------------- Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, Good Lord, deliver us. Member, JMU Safe Zones English Department James Madison University MSC 1801 Harrisonburg VA 22807 From: Carrol Cox [cbcox@ilstu.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:43 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: Lycidas -- not very relevant A fellow graduate student at Michigan in the 1950s would sing Lycidas as country music. "Weep no more..." in a nasal twang was quite impressive. :-) Carrol From: Roy Flannagan [roy@gwm.sc.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:32 PM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: NPR appearance of . . . John Milton! I am listening to Talk of the Nation, to Neil Conan, in a program devoted to memory and memorization, who just interviewed a gent named John Bassinger of Norwich CT, who has memorized Paradise Lost and is reciting it this weekend at a college at which he taught in Norwich. Perhaps you know of someone, perhaps a professional actor, who has memorized the whole thing. I remember hearing from one man, Guy Waterman I think his name was, who lived in isolation in a cabin in Maine and was memorizing the poem back in the mid-Seventies. I sent him a free subscription to Milton Quarterly, for his heroism. Roy Flannagan From: John Leonard [jleonard@uwo.ca] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 8:36 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: query about Lycidas To which I would add J. M. Evans's short book *The Road from Horton: Looking Backwards in Lycidas*, which is the source of his Cambridge Companion essay. Very lively it is too. John Leonard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stella Revard" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:29 AM Subject: Re: query about Lycidas > Besides Martin Evans' excellent article on Lycidas in the Cambridge > Companion, may I also point out the article on Lycidas in Blackwell's > A Companion to Milton published in 2001 and edited by Tom Corns. > ---------- > >From: spender@uwindsor.ca > >To: milton-l@richmond.edu > >Subject: query about Lycidas > >Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2001, 9:47 PM > > > > > > >Dear All, > > > >For a course on Milton next semester, I wonder if you might suggest > >thorough, engaging articles on 'Lycidas.' While I am aware of a range > >scholarship on the poem, and have gleaned much from various sources, I have > >never taught Milton before; could you recommend something that might be > >usefully read by a third-year undergraduate seminar? > > > >With thanks, > >Stephen > > > >Dr. Stephen Pender, English, University of Windsor > >Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4 > >spender@uwindsor.ca > > From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 9:11 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Eh...isn't Dr. Laura Jewish? I know some pretty conservative Christians who like her show very much, but I'm not sure what the demographics for her show are. Jim Tmsandefur@aol.com wrote: > > < birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being read > in the subway trains was the Bible. >> > > I live in San Bernardino County, California, and ride a daily commuter train > an hour and a half to Orange County, a few minutes from Disneyland. Bible > reading VASTLY outweighs reading of any other book. I am very often the only > person in sight reading something other than the Bible. When a passenger is > not reading the Bible, he's often reading some lame take on the Bible by some > lame theologian. > > On one hand, such things--and other cultural phenomena, such as the > popularity of Dr. Laura Schlesinger's radio show--could be taken as evidence > of the rising popularity of fundamentalist Chrisianity. On the other hand, as > this article from REASON magazine points out > (http://www.reason.com/rauch/99_06_26.html) a lot of the Christian moralizing > that is going on is really just inflation of formerly dogmatic values into > smarminess and ultimately humane feel-goodism. Also, after the September 11 > attacks, there were reports that Americans were becoming more religious as > this article points out, that appears not to be true after all: > (http://www.charismanews.com/news.cgi?a=724&t=news.html) > > $ From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 10:38 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: query about Lycidas See also Herbert Lindenberger's Forward to Joseph Gibaldi, _MLA Style Manual and Guide to Scholarly Publishing_, 2d ed. (New York: MLA, 1998), xv-xxvi, where he surveys literary criticism over decades in terms of studies of "Lycidas." The study is itself interesting, as it culminates with virtually the sole Milton study by an author much better known for 18th century studies, but perhaps Lindenberger wanted to suggest that PMLA was now _the_ forum for all discussions literary. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax