From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:50 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children If I may add an additional note to Kent R. Lehnhof's assertion that no progeny of A & E appear before the end of the epic, I will respectfully refer him to the last two books, which are rather jammed with, first, vision of said progeny, and then narratives about them. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-4319 ofc message +(626) 577-5810 home (sabbatical) From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:39 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Children My understanding is that early modern Europe especially was not known for its particularly tender or special treatment of children. I have yet to research some of the sources Ira Clark cites, but my reading at this point has done little to change the traditional view. Scott Grunow From: Diane McColley [mccolley@crab.rutgers.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:46 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Just ran across this 1998 post from Jeremy Maule. Not sure about a Dr Spock, John, tho Anna Bryson, whose recent vol on Courtesy and Civility touches on some of this lit, wd have us believe Erasmus on posture was pretty well embedded. Linda Pollock, Forgotten Children: Parent-Child Relations from 1500 to 1900 (1983), Ilana Krausman Ben-Amos, Adolescence and Youth in E Mod England (1994), Paul Griffiths, Youth and Authority: Formative Experiences in England 1560-1640 (1996) and the inevitable Keith Thomas, 'Age and authority in e mod England', Procs Brit Acad 62 (1976) will whirl you around the lit. Best, Jeremy Maule. ---------- >From: krl3@acpub.duke.edu (Kent R. Lehnhof) >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >Subject: Re: Milton and children >Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000, 4:26 AM > >Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my query. Since several >people wondered about the context of my question, I thought I would take a >quick moment to reply. > >I am writing about PL and was hoping to start with a general assertion along >the lines of "Milton scholars have long noticed the absence of children in >Milton's oeuvre." After reviewing some of these scholars, I was planning to >proceed by pointing out that PL is particularly interesting in its >childlessness. The numerous responses that I received to my initial query, >however, seem to suggest that this strategy isn't feasible. I, of course, >remembered the Edgerton children, but thought that I could easily argue that >they are not children at all. They don't speak or act like children, perhaps >suggesting that Milton doesn't "do children." Even when the demographics of >his production calls for pre-adults, he cannot convey childhood but rather >overlays adulthood onto bodies that just happen to be smaller and less >developed. > >If absent children are no more remarkable than absent elm trees or fried >eggs (as Carrol Cox eloquently summarized the situation), I will have to >forego the grand dramatics of my general pronouncement and kick off the >chapter with my particular observations about PL In spite of the general >opinion that missing children are not at all significant during the early >modern period, I believe that the lack of offspring in PL is nevertheless >peculiar in important ways. So much of the text gestures toward the future >family of Adam and Eve, that their failure to appear before the end of the >epic strikes me as odd. Pressure for progeny increases as Adam and Eve >repeatedly observe that Eden needs additional partakers as well as >additional laborers: in the absence of these "more hands" and "more mouths" >the Garden's superabundance is being wasted. Adam's remark that uncropped >fruit is falling to the ground for want of more members of the human family >insinuates into the Edenic environment a shocking situation of decomposition >and decay. In short, I believe that the text's numerous allusion to Adam and >Eve's eventual offspring often force the reader to wonder about the >postponed arrival of this "race of worshippers." > >All of this is generated in order to drive the real focus of my chapter, >which is an exposition of the importance Milton affords to acts of creation. >Ultimately, I argue that Milton's theology demands this deferral of Adam and >Eve's propagation. > >So that's the state of things. Once again, I gratefully acknowledge all >those kind enough to help me by sharing their knowledge. Thank you very much, >Kent Lehnhof > > >What about the fair infant dying of a cough? While Milton does not > >develop have any very young child-characters at length, the lady and her > >brothers in Comus can be considered children--Adam and Eve could be as > >well. Perhaps Milton was mainly interested in the fuzzy border area > >between childhood and adulthood where an adult capaity to reason is there > >but experience is lacking? In any case, I'm interested in hearing what > >you find on the subject. > > > >Dan Knauss > >Department of English, Marquette University > >daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com > > > >On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:41:48 -0400 (EDT) krl3@acpub.duke.edu (Kent R. > >Lehnhof) writes: > > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking > > > down > > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a > > > new > > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost > > > complete > > > absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this > > > observation > > > in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way > > > children are > > > missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might > > > be > > > forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: > > > kent.lehnhof@duke.edu > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kent > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________ > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:50 AM To: Patrick Dolan Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children And Sin's Death-begotten progeny? Eve is Adam's daughter as surely as Sin is Satan's: but both spring full-grown. How about the inquisitive little cherub in Book IV, if we're going to stretch the point? Cheers, all! Carol Barton ------Original Message------ From: Patrick Dolan To: milton-l@richmond.edu Sent: September 8, 2000 5:10:48 PM GMT Subject: Re: Milton and children <004001c018bf$b50fb6e0$f22a8ad1@default> Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu I think it's more interesting to say it this way: Sin and Death are the only children on the scene in Paradise Lost. Patrick From: rwill627 [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 10:57 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Children > that there was no concept of the "child" or "childhood" in the > post-Enlightenment sense. May I offer my translation of Martial(c.40 AD-c.104AD)--the epitaph for Erotion(a slave child born in his household) To you, Father Fronto, Mother Flaccilla, I entrust this girl, my pet and my delight; So that tiny Erotion may not shudder at the black shadows And the gaping mouths of the Tartarean dog. She would have finished only her sixth cold winter, Had she lived six days more than she did. Let her play around your aged feet, Babbling my name with her lisping tongue. Earth, lie lightly on her fragile bones: Her little feet were very light on you. Rose Williams From: Norman Burns [nburns@binghamton.edu] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:13 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Carroll Cox's categorical assertion that children get no attention from many of the major writers in the Western canon has, I suspect, served its purpose. I suggest that Carroll wished to provoke this learned group to list the exceptions, thereby saving him a lot of rereading as he prepares his essay on "The Role of Children in Canonical Western Literature." Droll fellow, that Cox, a learned Tom Sawyer, as it were. Among the many useful posts that Cox provoked, Miryam Librán-Moreno's surely deserves our special appreciation. Good show, Carroll! --Norm Burns At 02:00 PM 9/10/00 +0200, you wrote: >My apologies for belatedly joining this thread. > > > One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have > > no children in their works. Homer, > >As someone else said, you do have a very valid point, but I´m afraid some of >your examples don´t hold. We have some very moving passages about little >Astuanax, Hector´s son, and about Achilles´ childhood in the Iliad. Homer´s >depiction of Artemis´ behaviour in the Iliadic Theomachy and his delightful >children-similes show that he was very well acquainted with he ways of >children and had quite a knack at portraying them. >As for Sophocles, we have Eurysaces, Ajax´s baby son. In Aeschylus´ >Choephoroe we can find a very amusingly realistic account of the dangers >involved in being a wet nurse for the infant Orestes. Euripides gloried in >depicting children: we have the moving farewell sung by little Eumelus to >his mother Alcestis; also the final dirge for the Seven sung by their own >little children in Suppliant Women. We have the immensely pathetic scene of >Andromache´s loss of her baby son Astuanax in Trojan Women. In one of his >lost plays, Telephus, Agamemnon´s love for his three-year-old son Orestes >played a major part. Greeks positively loved to portray children in their >literature. We need only check Callimacus´ Hymn to Artemis to see it. >As for Virgil, we have the lovely figure of little Ascanius, Aeneas´ son. >I can´t quite comment on the rest of the writers- but I can guarantee that >classical antiquity was really fond of children in literature. > >Best, Miryam Librán-Moreno From: krl3@acpub.duke.edu Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 7:26 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my query. Since several people wondered about the context of my question, I thought I would take a quick moment to reply. I am writing about PL and was hoping to start with a general assertion along the lines of "Milton scholars have long noticed the absence of children in Milton's oeuvre." After reviewing some of these scholars, I was planning to proceed by pointing out that PL is particularly interesting in its childlessness. The numerous responses that I received to my initial query, however, seem to suggest that this strategy isn't feasible. I, of course, remembered the Edgerton children, but thought that I could easily argue that they are not children at all. They don't speak or act like children, perhaps suggesting that Milton doesn't "do children." Even when the demographics of his production calls for pre-adults, he cannot convey childhood but rather overlays adulthood onto bodies that just happen to be smaller and less developed. If absent children are no more remarkable than absent elm trees or fried eggs (as Carrol Cox eloquently summarized the situation), I will have to forego the grand dramatics of my general pronouncement and kick off the chapter with my particular observations about PL In spite of the general opinion that missing children are not at all significant during the early modern period, I believe that the lack of offspring in PL is nevertheless peculiar in important ways. So much of the text gestures toward the future family of Adam and Eve, that their failure to appear before the end of the epic strikes me as odd. Pressure for progeny increases as Adam and Eve repeatedly observe that Eden needs additional partakers as well as additional laborers: in the absence of these "more hands" and "more mouths" the Garden's superabundance is being wasted. Adam's remark that uncropped fruit is falling to the ground for want of more members of the human family insinuates into the Edenic environment a shocking situation of decomposition and decay. In short, I believe that the text's numerous allusion to Adam and Eve's eventual offspring often force the reader to wonder about the postponed arrival of this "race of worshippers." All of this is generated in order to drive the real focus of my chapter, which is an exposition of the importance Milton affords to acts of creation. Ultimately, I argue that Milton's theology demands this deferral of Adam and Eve's propagation. So that's the state of things. Once again, I gratefully acknowledge all those kind enough to help me by sharing their knowledge. Thank you very much, Kent Lehnhof >What about the fair infant dying of a cough? While Milton does not >develop have any very young child-characters at length, the lady and her >brothers in Comus can be considered children--Adam and Eve could be as >well. Perhaps Milton was mainly interested in the fuzzy border area >between childhood and adulthood where an adult capaity to reason is there >but experience is lacking? In any case, I'm interested in hearing what >you find on the subject. > >Dan Knauss >Department of English, Marquette University >daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com > >On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:41:48 -0400 (EDT) krl3@acpub.duke.edu (Kent R. >Lehnhof) writes: > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking > > down > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a > > new > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost > > complete > > absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this > > observation > > in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way > > children are > > missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might > > be > > forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: > > kent.lehnhof@duke.edu > > > > Thanks, > > Kent > > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From: Ira Clark [irac@english.ufl.edu] Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:34 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Children This widely spread perception that there was no sense of childhood and adolescence in our sense, promulgated by Aries and Stone, has taken a considerable drubbing. Please see Alan Macfarlane, Keith Thomas, Linda Pollock, Ralph Houlbrook, Paul Griffiths, Ilana Ben-Amos, Anthony Fletcher, et al. Ira At 09:28 AM 9/7/00 EDT, you wrote: > >Dear Miltonists: > >I am not sure I understand the nature of this query. It is a given, and >having read at length Stone's work on the family in early modern Europe, >that there was no concept of the "child" or "childhood" in the >post-Enlightenment sense. Interpretations of Vaughan and Traherne who do >use childhood images and symbolism no longer see them at "proto-Romantics" >but relate the imagery to Platonic and Christian (more specifically, Adam >in the garden and related topoi of the fall and the redemptive process both >individually and collectively) concepts. Emblem books regularly portray the >soul as a child. > >And what about the "mythology" that developed about Milton and his >daughters? Admittedly, they are shown as grown in most of the stories, but >perhaps exploring this avenue may have some bearing on this topic. > >Scott Grunow >Chicago, Illinois >"Non hai tu in Menfi, desiderii, speranze?" > From: rwill627 [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 10:47 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Off the top of my head: Little Ascanius has a role in Vergil's "Aeneid." Faulkner's "The Bear" deals with boyhood. Homer's "Iliad" has a touching picture of Astyanax. Jane Austen's heroine Emma has some nephews, and "Sense and Sensibility" has some children (or brats, if you want to be exact). I think there are others. Rose Williams From: Patrick Dolan [paddyd@zeus.ia.net] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 1:11 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children <004001c018bf$b50fb6e0$f22a8ad1@default> Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu I think it's more interesting to say it this way: Sin and Death are the only children on the scene in Paradise Lost. Patrick From: James Dougal Fleming [jdf26@columbia.edu] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 11:51 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children "Fly, Fleance,fly!" "What say you, nuncle?" undsoweiter. JDF On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Michael Watkins wrote: > No children in Shakespeare? Are you absolutely sure? > > Michael Watkins > TRINITY COLLEGE OXFORD > > On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Carrol Cox wrote: > > > > > "Kent R. Lehnhof" wrote: > > > > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking > down > > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new > > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost > complete > > > absence of children in Milton's writings. > > > > One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have no > > children > > in their works. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Virgil, > Dante, > > Shakespeare, Euripides (a couple brought on stage to be slaughtered), Ben > > Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Austen, Stendahl, Tolstoi (a few, but not very > > significantly), Pound, Eliot, James (only a few sticks labelled children), > > Faulkner (except for Caddy's muddy drawers), Pynchon, Samuel Johnson, Keats, > > Whitman (despite containing all), Rochester, Donne, Marlowe, Chaucer, > > Boccaccio, > > Wordsworth (argument there perhaps), Browning. Flaubert, Joyce, Voltaire . > > . . . > > . . It's hard to see how the absence of children in a writer can be any more > > significant than the absence of elm trees or fried eggs. > > > > Carrol Cox > > > > > From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 10:25 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children I think Miranda is being forgotten, although she falls into the same category as the girl in Comus--neither quite child nor adult. I know there are children in Chaucer too, though not as main characters. -Dan Knauss On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:02:32 +0100 (BST) Michael Watkins writes: > No children in Shakespeare? Are you absolutely sure? > > Michael Watkins > TRINITY COLLEGE OXFORD > > On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Carrol Cox wrote: > > > > > "Kent R. Lehnhof" wrote: > > > > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in > tracking > down > > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now > have a new > > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the > almost > complete > > > absence of children in Milton's writings. > > > > One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who > have no > > children > > in their works. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Sophocles, Aeschylus, > Virgil, > Dante, > > Shakespeare, Euripides (a couple brought on stage to be > slaughtered), Ben > > Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Austen, Stendahl, Tolstoi (a few, but not > very > > significantly), Pound, Eliot, James (only a few sticks labelled > children), > > Faulkner (except for Caddy's muddy drawers), Pynchon, Samuel > Johnson, Keats, > > Whitman (despite containing all), Rochester, Donne, Marlowe, > Chaucer, > > Boccaccio, > > Wordsworth (argument there perhaps), Browning. Flaubert, Joyce, > Voltaire . > > . . . > > . . It's hard to see how the absence of children in a writer can > be any more > > significant than the absence of elm trees or fried eggs. > > > > Carrol Cox > > > > > Dan Knauss Department of English, Marquette University daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: Diane McColley [mccolley@crab.rutgers.edu] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 7:24 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Speaking of infants, there's one in the Nativity Ode. ---------- >From: Dan Knauss >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >Subject: Re: Milton and children >Date: Sat, Sep 2, 2000, 7:35 AM > >What about the fair infant dying of a cough? While Milton does not >develop have any very young child-characters at length, the lady and her >brothers in Comus can be considered children--Adam and Eve could be as >well. Perhaps Milton was mainly interested in the fuzzy border area >between childhood and adulthood where an adult capaity to reason is there >but experience is lacking? In any case, I'm interested in hearing what >you find on the subject. > >Dan Knauss >Department of English, Marquette University >daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com > >On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:41:48 -0400 (EDT) krl3@acpub.duke.edu (Kent R. >Lehnhof) writes: > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking > > down > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a > > new > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost > > complete > > absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this > > observation > > in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way > > children are > > missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might > > be > > forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: > > kent.lehnhof@duke.edu > > > > Thanks, > > Kent > > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > From: Miryam y César Librán Moreno [libran@jet.es] Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 8:01 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children My apologies for belatedly joining this thread. > One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have > no children in their works. Homer, As someone else said, you do have a very valid point, but I´m afraid some of your examples don´t hold. We have some very moving passages about little Astuanax, Hector´s son, and about Achilles´ childhood in the Iliad. Homer´s depiction of Artemis´ behaviour in the Iliadic Theomachy and his delightful children-similes show that he was very well acquainted with he ways of children and had quite a knack at portraying them. As for Sophocles, we have Eurysaces, Ajax´s baby son. In Aeschylus´ Choephoroe we can find a very amusingly realistic account of the dangers involved in being a wet nurse for the infant Orestes. Euripides gloried in depicting children: we have the moving farewell sung by little Eumelus to his mother Alcestis; also the final dirge for the Seven sung by their own little children in Suppliant Women. We have the immensely pathetic scene of Andromache´s loss of her baby son Astuanax in Trojan Women. In one of his lost plays, Telephus, Agamemnon´s love for his three-year-old son Orestes played a major part. Greeks positively loved to portray children in their literature. We need only check Callimacus´ Hymn to Artemis to see it. As for Virgil, we have the lovely figure of little Ascanius, Aeneas´ son. I can´t quite comment on the rest of the writers- but I can guarantee that classical antiquity was really fond of children in literature. Best, Miryam Librán-Moreno From: Khvoyles@aol.com Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 11:02 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Hi All, Someone asked about children in Shakespeare. Isn't there a young boy in Henry V? Also, I believe that Mrs Weston has a baby girl in Jane Austen's _Emma_, but I could be wrong. Though I do know that Isabella Knightley has young children in that same novel. Katherine From: j.k. leonard [jleonard@julian.uwo.ca] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 9:50 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Children On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 Cobelli@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Miltonists: > > I am not sure I understand the nature of this query. It is a given, and > having read at length Stone's work on the family in early modern Europe, > that there was no concept of the "child" or "childhood" in the > post-Enlightenment sense. Interpretations of Vaughan and Traherne who do > use childhood images and symbolism no longer see them at "proto-Romantics" > but relate the imagery to Platonic and Christian (more specifically, Adam > in the garden and related topoi of the fall and the redemptive process both > individually and collectively) concepts. Emblem books regularly portray the > soul as a child. > I'm a bit suspicious of arguments that assert "there was no concept". Vaughan and Traherne might not been "proto-Romantics," but they did associate childhood with innocence. The fact that Adam is factored into it does not invalidate this association, for Irenaeus had argued that Adam was created as a child. Vaughan and Traherne might have shared this view (Alan Rudrum will no doubt be able to tell us). Jesus's "of such is the kingdom of heaven" also lent some support to the (perhaps not entirely absurd) view that childhood is a blessed state. John Leonard