From: Joseph Black [jlblack@utk.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 3:29 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Sidney Journal The Sidney Journal is about to publish its first issue (volume 18:1) since moving editorial offices from Guelph, ON to Knoxville. If any members of this list would like us to announce calls for papers, upcoming conferences, or conference sessions of interest to those who work on Philip Sidney, the Sidney family (throughout the 17th century), or their circles, please forward that information to me directly at the email address below. Our next issue includes articles by Margaret Hannay ("'Bearing the livery of your name': the Countess of Pembroke's Agency in Print and Scribal Publication"); Gavin Alexander ("A New manuscript of the Sidney Psalms"); and Elizabeth Mazzola ("Spenser, Sidney, and Second Thoughts: Mythology and Misgiving in Muipotmos"); in addition to book reviews and digests of current articles. If your library does not subscribe, please let me know and I can send them information about an institutional subscription. The Sidney Journal is interested in extending the range of articles it publishes to include work on 17th-century uses of/responses to Sidney, or on 17th-century members of the the Sidney family. We welcome shorter notes as well as longer papers. Please contact me if you have any questions. ****************************************************************** Joseph Black Editor, Sidney Journal Department of English McClung Tower 318 University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 jlblack@utk.edu Office phone: (865) 974-6942 Office fax: (865) 974-6926 ***************************************************************** From: Creamer, Kevin [kcreamer@richmond.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:56 PM To: 'Milton-L@Richmond.edu' Subject: Announcement: The Great Debate in Hell The Lark Ascending presents THE GREAT DEBATE IN HELL, a Dramatic Reading of Books I and II of Paradise Lost, starring distinguished countertenor Russell Oberlin as the Narrator and veteran off-Broadway director Richard Edelman as Satan, with an all-star cast drawn from the performance and academic worlds. Time: Sunday, February 4th, 2001, from 3-5 pm (with a reception afterward) Place: The German-Evangelical Lutheran Church of St Paul, 315 West 22 Street, New York City. Tickets: $20 regular; $10 seniors; students with ids go in for free. Send order & check to The Lark Ascending, 31 Jane Street, Ste 17B, New York, NY 10014, or call for more information: (212) 741-2417. From: gary patrick norris [stroszek@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 4:31 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Carrol Cox wrote: > Faulkner sorry Carrol, but you haven't read *The Unvanquished*. From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 3:08 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: God as a person? Tony, One finds the same idea in Charles' Williams' "this is thous; neither is this thou" formulation as he tried to balance positive and negative aspects of theology. It also explains why Lewis didn't agree with the popular reception of Bishop Robinson's "revolutionary" attack on a spatialized "God in heaven" theology. Milton seems to make the same point as he describes the spiritual beings in PL in contradictory terms of scale, both immense and miniscule. In an interesting article in the 70s, H. L. Weatherby contrasted Lewis and Eliot on the basis of Lewis's willingness to see the medival and renaissance "world picture" as a "model" that was necessarily discarded when its appearances could no longer be saved. Eliot, on the other hand, saw the discarding process as the dissociation of a once unified sensibility that has been regrettably lost. Dan Knauss On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:59:24 GMT "Tony Hill" writes: > I have been re-reading "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S.Lewis > recently and I notice that the devil Screwtape (a dedicated minion > of the fiend himself) is confounded by the PERSONAL interest God > takes in each human. The book is really meant as a work of > Christian theological exposition so when Lewis has Screwtape > write, for example: > > "I have known cases where what the patient called his "God" was > actually located up and to the left at the corner of the bedroom > ceiling, or inside his own head, or in a crucifix on the wall. But > whatever the nature of the composite object you must keep him > praying to IT - the thing that he has made, not to the Person who > has made him" > > I take this idea of God to be the one held by Lewis himself. > > He continues by saying effectively that if a human "consciously > directs his prayers 'not to what I think thou art but to what thou > knowest thyself to be' " then the Devil has lost the struggle for > that > soul. > > I think there is quite a lot of the idea of "God as a person in this > book and it may be worth reading (or re-reading) from that angle. > > > Tony Hill > www.ce.umist.ac.uk > Dan Knauss Department of English, Marquette University daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: Creamer, Kevin [kcreamer@richmond.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:03 PM To: 'Milton-L@Richmond.edu' Subject: Administrivia: Subscribing, Marathons Hello, Several weeks ago someone asked for information on subscribing to the list (so that students can join in the discussion). I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner. To subscribe to Milton-L, send a message to majordomo@richmond.edu In the body of the message, type: subscribe Milton-L youremail@yourschool.edu To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@richmond.edu with the message unsubscribe Milton-L youremail@yourschool.edu (.com and other ISP e-mail addresses are welcome -- I just used an .edu address for the example). I'd also like to take this opportunity to ask that anyone holding marathon readings of Paradise Lost send me the date, location and time if you'd like that posted on the Milton-L web pages. Please indicate whether the event is open to the public. Take care, Kevin. Kevin J.T. Creamer Milton-L Moderator University of Richmond http://www.richmond.edu/~creamer/milton/ From: Carol Barton, PhD [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:35 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Not that it's germane to Kent's question, but there are children in Chaucer. What about the little Christian who is murdered by the Jews in the Abbess' Tale? Carol Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carrol Cox" To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Milton and children > > "Kent R. Lehnhof" wrote: > > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking down > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost complete > > absence of children in Milton's writings. > > One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have no > children > in their works. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Virgil, Dante, > Shakespeare, Euripides (a couple brought on stage to be slaughtered), Ben > Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Austen, Stendahl, Tolstoi (a few, but not very > significantly), Pound, Eliot, James (only a few sticks labelled children), > Faulkner (except for Caddy's muddy drawers), Pynchon, Samuel Johnson, Keats, > Whitman (despite containing all), Rochester, Donne, Marlowe, Chaucer, > Boccaccio, > Wordsworth (argument there perhaps), Browning. Flaubert, Joyce, Voltaire . > . . . > . . It's hard to see how the absence of children in a writer can be any more > significant than the absence of elm trees or fried eggs. > > Carrol Cox > > From: Michael Watkins [michael.watkins@trinity.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:03 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children No children in Shakespeare? Are you absolutely sure? Michael Watkins TRINITY COLLEGE OXFORD On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Carrol Cox wrote: > > "Kent R. Lehnhof" wrote: > > > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking down > > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new > > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost complete > > absence of children in Milton's writings. > > One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have no > children > in their works. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Virgil, Dante, > Shakespeare, Euripides (a couple brought on stage to be slaughtered), Ben > Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Austen, Stendahl, Tolstoi (a few, but not very > significantly), Pound, Eliot, James (only a few sticks labelled children), > Faulkner (except for Caddy's muddy drawers), Pynchon, Samuel Johnson, Keats, > Whitman (despite containing all), Rochester, Donne, Marlowe, Chaucer, > Boccaccio, > Wordsworth (argument there perhaps), Browning. Flaubert, Joyce, Voltaire . > . . . > . . It's hard to see how the absence of children in a writer can be any more > significant than the absence of elm trees or fried eggs. > > Carrol Cox > > From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:29 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Children Dear Miltonists: I am not sure I understand the nature of this query. It is a given, and having read at length Stone's work on the family in early modern Europe, that there was no concept of the "child" or "childhood" in the post-Enlightenment sense. Interpretations of Vaughan and Traherne who do use childhood images and symbolism no longer see them at "proto-Romantics" but relate the imagery to Platonic and Christian (more specifically, Adam in the garden and related topoi of the fall and the redemptive process both individually and collectively) concepts. Emblem books regularly portray the soul as a child. And what about the "mythology" that developed about Milton and his daughters? Admittedly, they are shown as grown in most of the stories, but perhaps exploring this avenue may have some bearing on this topic. Scott Grunow Chicago, Illinois "Non hai tu in Menfi, desiderii, speranze?" From: Lew Kaye-Skinner [L.Kaye-Skinner@navix.net] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 8:39 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children On 09/01/2000, Carrol Cox wrote in response to Kent R. Lehnhof: >One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have no >children >in their works. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Virgil, Dante, >Shakespeare, Euripides (a couple brought on stage to be slaughtered), Ben >Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Austen, Stendahl, Tolstoi (a few, but not very >significantly), Pound, Eliot, James (only a few sticks labelled children), >Faulkner (except for Caddy's muddy drawers), Pynchon, Samuel Johnson, Keats, >Whitman (despite containing all), Rochester, Donne, Marlowe, Chaucer, >Boccaccio, >Wordsworth (argument there perhaps), Browning. Flaubert, Joyce, Voltaire . >. . . >. . It's hard to see how the absence of children in a writer can be any more >significant than the absence of elm trees or fried eggs. > >Carrol Cox Your point is a good one, but no children in Shakespeare is a little overstated. See Macbeth, King John, Richard III, and Midsummer Night's Dream, for instance. Romeo and Juliet aren't far removed from childhood. Lew Kaye-Skinner University of Nebraska-Lincoln From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:58 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: God as a person? Just curious -- but why do you associate that view of God with C.S. Lewis personally? You have to be careful when you call _The Screwtape Letters_ "Christian theological exposition," because it's an exposition through a demonic voice. Taking all of Screwtape's comments at face value is a bit like reading Blake's _Marriage of Heaven and Hell_ like a doctrinal statement. Lewis himself complained about how draining it was to write Screwtape because of the frame of mind he had to adopt -- thinking like a demon was apparently pretty exhausting to him :). Within the narrative, the comments pretty clearly seem to be depicting a false view of God -- something the demon delights in because it justitifies his intiution that all religious faith is facile. But I agree that this and other works are pretty good resources for someone interested in researching depictions of "God as a person." I'd suggest Lewis's _Till We Have Faces_ and Walter Wangerin's _Ragman and Other Cries of Faith_ as well. Jim << I have been re-reading "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S.Lewis recently and I notice that the devil Screwtape (a dedicated minion of the fiend himself) is confounded by the PERSONAL interest God takes in each human. The book is really meant as a work of Christian theological exposition so when Lewis has Screwtape write, for example: "I have known cases where what the patient called his "God" was actually located up and to the left at the corner of the bedroom ceiling, or inside his own head, or in a crucifix on the wall. But whatever the nature of the composite object you must keep him praying to IT - the thing that he has made, not to the Person who has made him" I take this idea of God to be the one held by Lewis himself. He continues by saying effectively that if a human "consciously directs his prayers 'not to what I think thou art but to what thou knowest thyself to be' " then the Devil has lost the struggle for that soul. I think there is quite a lot of the idea of "God as a person in this book and it may be worth reading (or re-reading) from that angle. Tony Hill www.ce.umist.ac.uk >> From: Carrol Cox [cbcox@ilstu.edu] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:47 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children "Kent R. Lehnhof" wrote: > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking down > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost complete > absence of children in Milton's writings. One could make up a liftime's reading list of major authors who have no children in their works. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, Euripides (a couple brought on stage to be slaughtered), Ben Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Austen, Stendahl, Tolstoi (a few, but not very significantly), Pound, Eliot, James (only a few sticks labelled children), Faulkner (except for Caddy's muddy drawers), Pynchon, Samuel Johnson, Keats, Whitman (despite containing all), Rochester, Donne, Marlowe, Chaucer, Boccaccio, Wordsworth (argument there perhaps), Browning. Flaubert, Joyce, Voltaire . . . . . . It's hard to see how the absence of children in a writer can be any more significant than the absence of elm trees or fried eggs. Carrol Cox From: engmdean@acs.eku.edu Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:43 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: engmdean Subject: Re: Milton and children What about the Edgerton children in *A Maske*? What about the boys under his tuteledge in *Of Education*? What about Adam's and Eve's frequent references to the hope of children in PL? --Margaret Dean, Eastern Kentucky University From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:36 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children What about the fair infant dying of a cough? While Milton does not develop have any very young child-characters at length, the lady and her brothers in Comus can be considered children--Adam and Eve could be as well. Perhaps Milton was mainly interested in the fuzzy border area between childhood and adulthood where an adult capaity to reason is there but experience is lacking? In any case, I'm interested in hearing what you find on the subject. Dan Knauss Department of English, Marquette University daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:41:48 -0400 (EDT) krl3@acpub.duke.edu (Kent R. Lehnhof) writes: > Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking > down > books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a > new > query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost > complete > absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this > observation > in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way > children are > missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might > be > forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: > kent.lehnhof@duke.edu > > Thanks, > Kent > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: Tony Hill [mjksezth@fs1.ce.umist.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 12:59 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: God as a person? I have been re-reading "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S.Lewis recently and I notice that the devil Screwtape (a dedicated minion of the fiend himself) is confounded by the PERSONAL interest God takes in each human. The book is really meant as a work of Christian theological exposition so when Lewis has Screwtape write, for example: "I have known cases where what the patient called his "God" was actually located up and to the left at the corner of the bedroom ceiling, or inside his own head, or in a crucifix on the wall. But whatever the nature of the composite object you must keep him praying to IT - the thing that he has made, not to the Person who has made him" I take this idea of God to be the one held by Lewis himself. He continues by saying effectively that if a human "consciously directs his prayers 'not to what I think thou art but to what thou knowest thyself to be' " then the Devil has lost the struggle for that soul. I think there is quite a lot of the idea of "God as a person in this book and it may be worth reading (or re-reading) from that angle. Tony Hill www.ce.umist.ac.uk From: Lew Kaye-Skinner [L.Kaye-Skinner@navix.net] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:54 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and children Three of the Edgerton children in Milton's Maske at Ludlow Castle are lost in the woods, but not absent. Lew Kaye-Skinner University of Nebraska-Lincoln *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 8/31/2000, at 8:41 AM, krl3@acpub.duke.edu wrote: >Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking down >books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new >query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost complete >absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this observation >in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way children are >missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might be >forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: >kent.lehnhof@duke.edu > >Thanks, >Kent From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:54 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: RE: Milton and children Kent, Milton's subject matter rarely ran to things that involved children. But see "Comus," and "Of Education." Oh -- and "On the Morning of Christ's Nativity." And "On the Circumcision." He was a teacher. Maybe that had something to do with it! ;o) Best, Carol Barton ------Original Message------ From: krl3@acpub.duke.edu (Kent R. Lehnhof) To: milton-l@richmond.edu Sent: August 31, 2000 12:41:48 PM GMT Subject: Milton and children Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking down books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost complete absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this observation in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way children are missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might be forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: kent.lehnhof@duke.edu Thanks, Kent From: John Leonard [jleonard@julian.uwo.ca] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 1:17 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: God as a person? Dear Gardner and Tim, Thank you for the most helpful references. The *Surprised by Joy* one is exactly the passage I was thinking of. Yours ever, John -----Original Message----- From: Gardner Campbell To: milton-l@richmond.edu Date: August 31, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Re: God as a person? >The reference you're remembering may be in *Surprised By Joy* toward the >end of the chapter called "The New Look," where Lewis describes his >movement from Realism to Idealism to Theism to Christianity. See especially >pp. 209-210 in the Harcourt, Brace & World hardcover edition (1955). > >Best wishes, >Gardner Campbell > > >Gardner Campbell, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of English >Department of English, Linguistics, and Speech >Mary Washington College >1301 College Avenue >Fredericksburg, Virginia 22401 >(540) 654-1542 > > >>> burbery@MARSHALL.EDU 08/28/00 05:34AM >>> > >Dear John: > >I don't have Lewis' *Mere Christianity* in front of me, but am pretty sure >that he has a discussion in it on the "scandal of particularity" that was >the Incarnation. On Lewis' view, scandalous because it was personal and >specific -- God breaking into human history as an actual person, weighing so >many stones, etc. > >Best, > >Tim Burbery > > > > > > >Now I have a question of my own. Can anyone recall where C. S. Lewis > >insists that God is "a person" and scorns those who refer to him as "the > >Absolute"? > > > >Many thanks, > > > >John Leonard > >-----Original Message----- > >From: david hathaway > >To: Milton-L@richmond.edu > >Date: August 25, 2000 8:12 AM > >Subject: Charles Williams??? > > > > > > >hi- > > >I'm not clear on who I'm speaking with. Nonetheless, > > >do you happen to know the "Charles Williams" source > > >that C.S. Lewis dedicates 'A Preface to Paradise > > >Lost.' The footnote I have is 'The Poetical Works of > > >Milton.' The World Classics, 1940. Yet, I cannot find > > >this book anywhere. Do you have any additional > > >information or suggestions? > > >Sincerely, > > >D. Hathaway > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > > >Do You Yahoo!? > > >Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > > >http://mail.yahoo.com/ From: krl3@acpub.duke.edu Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 8:42 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton and children Many thanks to all those who assisted me a few months ago in tracking down books and journals questioning Raphael's reliability. I now have a new query, motivated by an interest in what I perceive to be the almost complete absence of children in Milton's writings. Has anyone made this observation in print and where might I go to read investigations of the way children are missing from Milton? I am grateful for all the assistance that might be forthcoming and ask that responses be sent off-list to: kent.lehnhof@duke.edu Thanks, Kent