From: Ann Gulden [a.t.gulden@iba.uio.no] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 8:57 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century well (and this is going to be frivolous) there is a moment in The Lion King which caused a frisson of recognition when I saw it in 1995 with my then 7 year old, where the old Lion presents his son to his people for the first time. He stands on a high jutting rock and holds up the cub to the populace below, who all cheer, all except the hyena, chief baddy, who, much put out, slinks off towards the camera and round the corner into temporary oblivion. The passage brought to mind quite spontaneously was 'But all ye gods, /Adore him, who to compass all this dies, /Adore the Son, and honour him as me. /No sooner had the almighty ceased, but all /The multitude of angels with a shout /Loud as from numbers without number, sweet /As from blessed voices, uttering joy, heaven rung with jubilee' PL III.341 Then there is a jump , Disney could not put it all in , until 'on this windy sea of land, the fiend /Walked up and down alone bent on his prey, /Alone, for other creatures in this place /Living or lifeless to be found was none,' PL III.440 the odd thing is that the atmosphere created by the film seemed exactly right. The satanic hyena stalks alone in his own desolate landscape. It may be of use, as a short cut, lasting no more than a few minutes. At 10:04 06.04.00 CST6CDT, you wrote: >0100,0100,0100I am planning a course on Milton's >presence in late 20th-century >literature (and perhaps film). Can any of you suggest authors and >titles that reflect either Milton's direct influence or his major > >themes--Eden, the fall, and redemption? Linking Milton with earlier >writers, such as Blake, Byron (Cain), Yeats, and Conrad, has >worked quite well, but I'd like to include more contemporary authors. > > >I would appreciate any help that you can give me in making Milton >more relevant to students. > > >Regards, > >Alice Mathews > > >Alice Mathews >Assistant Chair Internet:Mathews@unt.edu >Department of English Pegasus:cas/mathews >University of North Texas Telephone: 940-565-2850 >P.O. Box 311307 FAX: 940-565-4355 >Denton, TX 76203 > > > From: Norman T. Burns [nburns@binghamton.edu] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 1:01 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century In the past I've responded to questions like these with references to John Collier's _Paradise Lost: Screenplay for Cinema of the Mind_ (Knopf, 1973)--it is available on BookFinder.com for $13. And I can refer you to Richard Wilbur's wonderful "A Miltonic Sonnet for Mr. Johnson on his Refusal of Peter Hurd's Official Portrait." Dated 6 January, 1967, it reproves LBJ for the Vietnam folly. His portrait he rejected with words approximating "it's the ugliest thing I ever saw." The Hurd portrait can easily be found on the Internet (I believe it may even be on the semiofficial LBJ site); I believe I once even found the sonnet on the Web. The whole affair might not only be "relevant," but could touch off a lot of bad feelings in North Texas; be sure to let us know if it does! --Norm Burns At 10:04 AM 4/6/2000 +0000, you wrote: >0100,0100,0100I am planning a course on Milton's >presence in late 20th-century >literature (and perhaps film). Can any of you suggest authors and >titles that reflect either Milton's direct influence or his major > >themes--Eden, the fall, and redemption? Linking Milton with earlier >writers, such as Blake, Byron (Cain), Yeats, and Conrad, has >worked quite well, but I'd like to include more contemporary authors. > > >I would appreciate any help that you can give me in making Milton >more relevant to students. > > >Regards, > >Alice Mathews > > >Alice Mathews >Assistant Chair Internet:Mathews@unt.edu >Department of English Pegasus:cas/mathews >University of North Texas Telephone: 940-565-2850 >P.O. Box 311307 FAX: 940-565-4355 >Denton, TX 76203 From: Carrol Cox [cbcox@ilstu.edu] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 3:04 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Martin Luther on IMF / WorldBank "Taking the usurer, that old-fashioned but ever-renewed specimen of the capitalist, for his text, Luther shows very well that the love of power is an element in the desire to get rich. 'The heathen were able, by the light of reason, to conclude that a usurer is a double-died thief and murderer. We Christians, however, hold them in such honour, that we fairly worship them for the sake of their money ... Whoever eats up, robs, and steals the nourishment of another, that man commits as great a murder (so far as in him lies) as he who starves a man or utterly undoes him. Such does a usurer, and sits the while safe on his stool, when he ought rather to be hanging on the gallows, and be eaten by as many ravens as he has stolen guilders, if only there were so much flesh on him, that so many ravens could stick their beaks in and share it. Meanwhile, we hang the small thieves ... Little thieves are put in the stocks, great thieves go flaunting in gold and silk ... Therefore is there, on this earth, no greater enemy of man (after the devil) than a gripe-money, and usurer, for he wants to be God over all men. Turks, soldiers, and tyrants are also bad men, yet must they let the people live, and confess that they are bad, and enemies, and do, nay, must, now and then show pity to some. But a usurer and money-glutton, such a one would have the whole world perish of hunger and thirst, misery and want, so far as in him lies, so that he may have all to himself, and every one may receive from him as from a God, and be his serf for ever more. [This is what gladdens his heart, and also] to wear fine cloaks, golden chains, rings, to wipe his mouth, to be deemed and taken for a worthy, pious man ... Usury is a great huge monster, like a were-wolf, who lays waste all, more than any Cacus, Gerion or Antaeus. And yet decks himself out, and would be thought pious, so that people may not see where the oxen have gone, that he drags backwards into his den. But Hercules shall hear the cry of the oxen and of his prisoners, and shall seek Cacus even in cliffs and among rocks, and shall set the oxen loose again from the villain. For Cacus means the villain that is a pious usurer, and steals, robs, eats everything. And will not own that he has done it, and thinks no one will find him out, because the oxen, drawn backwards into his den, make it seem, from their foot-prints, that they have been let out. So the usurer would deceive the world, as though he were of use and gave the world oxen, which he, however, rends, and eats all alone ... And since we break on the wheel, and behead highwaymen, murderers, and housebreakers, how much more ought we to break on the wheel and kill ... hunt down, curse, and behead all usurers'" (Marx quoting Luther, Capital, vol. 1, p. 740) From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 2:44 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. From: Chris [CORCHARD@oak.grove.iup.edu] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 9:16 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: CORCHARD@oak.grove.iup.edu Subject: Satan as Cromwell One might also add to John Leonard's references to "necessity" the degree to which it was an important catchword of Republican discourse in a plethora of pamphlets that were published immediately after the regicide justifying the establishment of the commonwealth. Chris Orchard From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 2:52 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. From: Margaret Thickstun [mthickst@hamilton.edu] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 11:08 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century Alice Mathews--try Louise Gluck's volume, Wild Iris, which is gorgeous and very complex. For smaller things, Donald Justice's poem "The Wall," Frost's "Never Again Would Bird Song Be the Same," and several poems about the serpent in Virginia Hamilton Adair's recent volume, "Ants of the Melon."--Margie Thickstun >Can any of you suggest authors and titles that reflect either Milton's >direct influence or his major themes--Eden, the fall, and redemption? >Linking Milton with earlier writers, such as Blake, Byron, Yeats, and >Conrad, has >worked quite well, but I'd like to include more contemporary authors. From: J W Creaser [creaser@holl.u-net.com] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 5:03 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Satan as Cromwell? The idea may be old, but it has life in it. For example, Martin Dzelzainis's essay on `Milton's Classical Republicanism' leads up to this point (David Armitage et al (eds), Milton and Republicanism, Cambridge, 1995, pp, 23-24). David Norbrook, I recall, makes a similar point in `Writing the English Republic'. John Creaser At 11:14 04/04/00 +0000, you wrote: > > >Fellow Listers: > >Do any books or essays (Old Historical, I'd imagine, though perhaps not) >argue that Satan's characterization in *PL* is based, in part, on Cromwell? >I'm thinking of how both plead "necessity" to justify their actions ... I >suspect this is an old point in Milton criticism, but I'm just not sure >where to find discussion(s) on it. Thanks in advance. > >Tim Burbery >Marshall University > > > From: Lori Morton [lmorton@sctcorp.com] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 5:23 PM To: kcreamer@richmond.edu Subject: SHATERM 4.3/SHASUBJ 4.3 Hi Kevin, Are you wanting a fix for Defect #33271? If so, attached are versions of SHATERM and SHASUBJ which fix this defect. Student 4.3 is scheduled to be released in June. There will be newer 4.3 versions of SHATERM and SHASUBJ delivered with Student 4.3. I hope these versions of the forms help. Have a nice weekend, Lori Morton SCT ActionLine Consultant lmorton@sctcorp.com (304)587-2840 (See attached file: shaterm.fmb)(See attached file: shasubj.fmb) From: Hugh Wilson [dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:52 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics Dear Gary, It would be easier to respond it you offered the reasons (and the citations) for your suspicions. Although Milton did not advocate universal toleration, he did envision a broader range of tolerated opinion than Thomas Edwards, Thomas Hobbes, Charles I, Robert Filmer or most members of the Long Parliament. >From _Areopagitica_ to his last tract, _Of True Religion_, Milton spoke up for independent thought within a broadly construed conception of Christianity. Although he was not--in my view--a pacifist, he opposed any attempt to coerce thought or attain moral assent by force. Milton regarded toleration as a moral obligation mandated by scripture: "How shall we prove all things, which includes all opinions at least founded on Scripture, unless we not only tolerate them, but patiently hear them, and seriously read them?" (_Of True Religion_, 8:436). Although he opposed the Papacy, Milton did not support the outright censorship of Catholic writers as such. He noted that the government "suffered the Idolatrous books of Papists. . . to be sold & read as common as our own. Why not much rather of Anabaptists, Arians, Arminians & Socinians? There is no Learned man but will confess he hath much profited by reading Controversies, his Senses awakt, his Judgment sharpn'd, and the truth which he holds more formly establish't" (_Of True Religion_, 437-38). In _On Liberty_, John Stuart Mill makes a similar argument. Hugh Wilson hwilson@door.net (806) 747-8830 At 01:52 AM 4/4/2000 -0600, you wrote: > > >Hugh Wilson wrote: > > > > Dear Professor Norris, > > > > Both Milton and Williams defend the value of religious toleration. In > > particular, I was thinking of Milton's _Areopagitica_ [1644] and Roger > > Williams' _The Bloody Tenet of Persecution_ [1644]. In _Leviathan_ [1651] > > and _Behemoth_, Hobbes takes a very different stance. > >Hey there Hugh, I am no professor...just a fellow student... > >Concerning the idea of religious toleration, though, I was wondering if you >could explain toleration. As I see it, Milton presents a tolerance through >heavy blinders. > >Although, tolerance can be understood as the capacity to withstand >the ideas of others, I feel that Milton held toleration as the capacity to >withstand hardship or pain. > >Gary Norris > > From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 4:47 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Religion is ultimate transformation. Ethical duties without this ultimate transformation do not religion make. Scott Grunow From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:16 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century You don't indicate titles you already have in mind, but one of the first that occurs to me is C.S. Lewis's trilogy, especially _Perelandra_, the second volume. _Frankenstein_ is, of coures. pervaded with Miltonic language and themes. You might consider Ursula LeGuin's _The Word for World is Forest_, which is conveniently short (a novella, really) and thematically relevant. In fact, science fiction offers many potential titles, including several works by Samuel R. Delany. Then there is, of course, Peter Ackroyd's very odd and disturbing _Milton in America_, but I would be disinclined to use that with undergraduates. The same goes for Robert Graves's _Wife to Mr. Milton_, I suppose. If you wanted to feature _Paradise Regained_, there are both Kazantzakis's _Last Temptation of Christ_ and Saramago's _The Gospel According to Jesus Christ_ (and you could include the film by Pasolini, _Gospel According to St. Matthew_). On the other hand, I prefer to spend time during the semester reading *twice* through _Paradise Lost_ itself. This has had remarkable success (it's a trick I learned from my dissertation director, except that he applied it to _The Prelude_). Tom Dillingham From: Mike Felker [mfelker@SPC.cc.tx.us] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:04 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century > While it may be stretching the definition of "literature" a bit, your mention > of film calls up an example I use in my World Literature I class. I often > start the course with an episode of the classic Star Trek series, titled > "Space Seed." This is the episode which introduces Ricardo Montalban as Khan, > the genetically-"improved" leader of the Eugenics War on Earth. Awakened from > suspended animation, Khan rebels against Kirk and crew in an attempt to make > himself captain of the Enterprise. Defeated, he is placed on trial, only to > have Kirk dismiss the charges, offering him the chance to be left behind with > his followers to try to tame a harsh planet. Khan responds by asking Kirk, > "Have you ever read Milton?" Kirk nods and says, "Yes. I understand." > Unfortunately, he must then explain the reference to other crew members by > quoting Satan's "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." It may not be classic literature, but Star Trek (and all its sequel movies and t.v. series) was far more literary than most non-watchers realize, often, as in this case, drawing the plot as well as the allusions from Milton, Shakespeare, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, and elsewhere. Mike Felker Chair, English and Philosophy South Plains College > > From: john rumrich [rumrich@mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:07 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics Hey Margaret, I don't remember it from York, but I recall reading Masson on the subject. My recollection, vague, is that Milton and Williams exchanged Latin for Dutch instruction during M's tenure as Secretary for Foreign Tongues. The Dutch were looming larger and larger in England's foreign policy at the time. If I had Masson right here I'd check it out in the index for you, but I don't and yet I'm pretty sure it's in there. And re the thread concerning atheists and selfishness, I recall, again vaguely, reading in Anders Nygren, Agape and Eros, that one of the great problems of the medieval church, with respect to the Augustinian cupiditas-caritas divide, was that of unselfish love. If the reason you avoid abusive love and keep your loving properly useful is that you want to progress toward heaven, then you are not loving unselfishly. This problem has consequences for literary interpretation. For the Augustinian approach (as taken by, eg, DW Robertson), Troilus in loving excessively is clearly more culpable, and more subject to punishment, than Diomede or Cressida, for example. (Chaucer I think deliberately works this problematic into his poem.) I can remember--quite vividly for once--as a child raised in the catholic church, reciting by rote the Act of Contrition every night so that if I died in my sleep I wouldn't go to hell. The relevant line: "I detest all my sins because of thy just punishment, but most of all because they offend thee my God . . ." If I had thought about it, I would have realized even then that I was lying since the main reason I was saying the prayer was that the nuns in church school had effectively conveyed the concept of hell. We even had filmstrips featuring crowds being roasted. That's the stick. They never did quite convey the carrot, maybe because the beatific vision doesn't lend itself to filmstrips. But the point is that good behavior was hardly encouraged for its own sake. John >About Milton and Roger Williams--do I remember correctly hearing at the >IMS6 in York last summer that Williams would visit Milton in London? I >cannot remember from whom or in what context I heard this, so I welcome >responses from other more-attentive listeners. > >Or, I may have made this up since I want so badly to uncover connections >between Milton and the Massachusetts Bay experiment--Increase Mather, for >example, was in England during the 1650s. If anyone has any information >about any of this, I would appreciate receiving it. > > >Margaret Thickstun >Department of English >Hamilton College >198 College Hill Rd >Clinton, NY 13323 >(315)859-4466 From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:46 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request In a message dated 4/6/00 5:18:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tmsandefur@aol.com writes: << No, the real question is what selfishness has to do with running around killing people, if indeed they are doing that. Such is the action of a person with no self, not of a person whose primary concern is the improvement of his own soul--i.e., a truly selfish person. But this sort of accusation is the stock in trade of the religious. $ >> It's always good to see an egoist, and always a pity to see how limited your rhetoric is. You have to have a soul to desire to improve it -- apart from such a concept, we are left with nothing but our material lives. And material selfishness may indeed see fit to run around killing people. Otherwise selishness is not in itself an evil thing -- we are morally obligated to care for ourselves and fools if we do otherwise. What morality also tells us is that it's wrong to care "only" for ourselves, and this is what most people really mean by "selfishness." Governments have been acting on materialist premises for as long as they've been in existence, actually. Jim From: huntc@cofc.edu Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:49 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Satan and other adversaries On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Joseph Black wrote: > This is not a reponse to the Satan as Cromwell question, but a generalized > seconding of the query: I'd be interested to hear of discussions that > broadly address figurations of the rebel/adversary that might resonate in > Milton's Satan. > One of my students, several years ago, insisted on writing a paper on Satan as Cromwell (it didn't turn out to be up to her usual standard, but she learned a lot so it was worth it). She then went on to graduate school. Imagine her surprise when her professor in a graduate Milton course poured scorn on her earlier effort, _on the grounds that "everyone knows" Satan is based on Charles I_! The student then chose to work in the nineteenth century. . . . cch Caroline C. Hunt Phone: (843)953-5649 Department of English Fax: (843)953-3180 College of Charleston E-mail: huntc@cofc.edu Charleston SC 29424 Academic page:http//www.cofc.edu/~huntc/huntc.html Dog page:http//www.cofc.edu/~huntc/dogpage.html From: John D. Schaeffer [jschaeff@niu.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:47 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century Dear Ms. Matthews: You might check out Al Pacino's film "The Devil's Advocate," in which he plays Satan who pretends to be an attorney named "John Milton." John D. Schaeffer Northern Illinois U. "Alice Mathews ENGL, 2050" wrote: > 0100,0100,0100I am planning a course on Milton's > presence in late 20th-century > literature (and perhaps film). Can any of you suggest authors and > titles that reflect either Milton's direct influence or his major > > themes--Eden, the fall, and redemption? Linking Milton with earlier > writers, such as Blake, Byron (Cain), Yeats, and Conrad, has > worked quite well, but I'd like to include more contemporary authors. > > I would appreciate any help that you can give me in making Milton > more relevant to students. > > Regards, > > Alice Mathews > > > Alice Mathews > Assistant Chair Internet:Mathews@unt.edu > Department of English Pegasus:cas/mathews > University of North Texas Telephone: 940-565-2850 > P.O. Box 311307 FAX: 940-565-4355 > Denton, TX 76203 From: engmdean@acs.eku.edu Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 5:44 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton in 20th Century Probably many on the list have notice the twenty-line citation of Paradise Lost in *The English Patient*--the novel, not the film. --Margaret Dean Eastern Kentucky University From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:10 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton Read on April Fool's Day--no kidding I should report that I held the 5th annual marathon reading of _Paradise Lost_ at my apartment last Saturday, despite my fears that someone would play jokes to honor the date. I first got the idea for the read off this list 4+ years ago, and have since noticed via others' reports that there are all kinds of ways to do it--all nighters, community events with big names and microphones, etc. I have opted for a home reading, and it has worked well in my case. We go from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. or so, with breaks after most books for substantial munchies on the table, most of which I supply. We also take a dutch-treat lunch break, and I call out for pizza between Books XI and XII. (I'm beginning to associate, "The world's great period" with mushroom and pepperoni.) This year we had a small group--six in all, of whom five made it all the way from man's first disobedience to the solitary way. After one of the Brians left, we only had one male left--who somehow got every misogynistic speech in Books IX and X! It was also this reader, a graduate student, who told us that somehow he had never read the epic. We didn't believe him until he read the "Argument" to Book VI and did an obvious double take over the angels throwing MOUNTAINS ??!! Another student, back in school after many years away, said she was so glad to be among adults who thought that reading Milton was a good way to spend a Saturday. In any case, I always enjoy knowing what others are doing, and this is my report. Jameela Lares Associate Professor Department of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax From: Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:05 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Elysium It sounds wonderful, Phillip! Please count me in (I will send you a check as requested), and best of luck to you and your group (though if the composition of your debut issue is any indication, luck is not something you are going to need). All good wishes, Carol Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip Sidney Horky" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:38 PM Subject: Elysium > _Elysium_ is a journal of contemporary creative arts relating to the > Western Classics published by Elysium, a student group at the University > of Michigan. Our incipient edition is slated for publication in June 2000 > and we are accepting pre-orders for this non-profit journal now. Included > in Elysium this year are original prose, poetry, translations, and visual > arts from Seamus Heaney, Peter Green, Mary Gray Hughes, Kevin McFadden, > Katherine Williams, Benjamin Acosta-Hughes, Carter C. Revard, and many > others. Cost is $5 for each journal. You cannot find a more interesting > 64 pages anywhere! > > Feel free to mail either cash or a check (made out to Elysium) for $5 each > copy of _Elysium_ to: > > Elysium > c/o Phillip Horky > 116 N. State Apt#2 > Ann Arbor, MI 48104 > > Thanks, fellow Miltonians. I hope some of you will be interested in this > project. Please email me phorky@umich.edu if you have any queries. > > Sincerely, > Phillip S. Horky > Editor-in-Chief, _Elysium_ > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > "The first and wisest of them all profess'd > To know this only, that he nothing knew." > -The Son, _Paradise Regain'd_ > > "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for > an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." _Galatians_5:13 > > "Dim as the borrowed beams of moon and stars > To lonely, weary, wandering travellers, > Is reason to the soul...." -John Dryden, _Religio Laici_ > ____________________________________________________________________ > Phillip Horky > Student, LS&A Honors > The University of Michigan Ann Arbor > > > > From: Phillip Sidney Horky [phorky@umich.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:39 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Elysium _Elysium_ is a journal of contemporary creative arts relating to the Western Classics published by Elysium, a student group at the University of Michigan. Our incipient edition is slated for publication in June 2000 and we are accepting pre-orders for this non-profit journal now. Included in Elysium this year are original prose, poetry, translations, and visual arts from Seamus Heaney, Peter Green, Mary Gray Hughes, Kevin McFadden, Katherine Williams, Benjamin Acosta-Hughes, Carter C. Revard, and many others. Cost is $5 for each journal. You cannot find a more interesting 64 pages anywhere! Feel free to mail either cash or a check (made out to Elysium) for $5 each copy of _Elysium_ to: Elysium c/o Phillip Horky 116 N. State Apt#2 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 Thanks, fellow Miltonians. I hope some of you will be interested in this project. Please email me phorky@umich.edu if you have any queries. Sincerely, Phillip S. Horky Editor-in-Chief, _Elysium_ _____________________________________________________________________ "The first and wisest of them all profess'd To know this only, that he nothing knew." -The Son, _Paradise Regain'd_ "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." _Galatians_5:13 "Dim as the borrowed beams of moon and stars To lonely, weary, wandering travellers, Is reason to the soul...." -John Dryden, _Religio Laici_ ____________________________________________________________________ Phillip Horky Student, LS&A Honors The University of Michigan Ann Arbor From: Alice Mathews ENGL, 2050 [mathews@unt.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:05 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton in 20th Century 0100,0100,0100I am planning a course on Milton's presence in late 20th-century literature (and perhaps film). Can any of you suggest authors and titles that reflect either Milton's direct influence or his major themes--Eden, the fall, and redemption? Linking Milton with earlier writers, such as Blake, Byron (Cain), Yeats, and Conrad, has worked quite well, but I'd like to include more contemporary authors. I would appreciate any help that you can give me in making Milton more relevant to students. Regards, Alice Mathews Alice Mathews Assistant Chair Internet:Mathews@unt.edu Department of English Pegasus:cas/mathews University of North Texas Telephone: 940-565-2850 P.O. Box 311307 FAX: 940-565-4355 Denton, TX 76203 From: Joseph Black [jlblack@utk.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 3:41 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu; owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Satan and other adversaries This is not a reponse to the Satan as Cromwell question, but a generalized seconding of the query: I'd be interested to hear of discussions that broadly address figurations of the rebel/adversary that might resonate in Milton's Satan. I happened yesterday to teach Book I of PL in the morning, and then be reading Caesar's Gallic Wars later in the day, and I noticed a possible echo. In Book 7 of GW, the rebel Vercingetorix is accused by his followers of selling them out; he delivers a stirring speech that defends his strategy, after which "the whole host shouted with one accord" to note their approval ("conclamat omnis multitudo..."). The line reminded me of PL 1.541-42, when Satan's army, reassambled consequent to his persuasive rhetoric, falls in and delivers "A shout that tore hell's concave, and beyond..." (Satan's rhetoric in this Book, by the way, is of a kind that March Madness always reminds me is more or less identical to the motivational strategies employed by football/basketball coaches). What I liked about this resonance is the typically allusive subtext Milton offers the reader who noticed the link (if that is indeed what it is): after the assembled Gauls have their faith reaffirmed in their leader, "They declared that Vercingetorix was a consummate leader, that there could be no doubt of his loyalty, and that the campaign could not be conducted with greater intelligence." Vercingetorix is, in fact, the wiliest strategist Caesar faces, and after the Gauls suffer one defeat in direct battle, he resorts to indirect methods of warfare -- harassassing Caesar's supply lines, etc. I wouldn't want to make too much of this -- I might mention it in class as a possible example of the kinds of associations that lie buried in the Milton's language. But I did wonder if anyone had surveyed the range of "rebels/adversaries" that contribute to Satan -- I don't doubt there might be a bit of Cromwell there, but I'm also pretty sure that Satan contains a legion of others.... ****************************************************************** Joseph Black Department of English McClung Tower 318 University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 jlblack@utk.edu Office phone: (423) 974-6942 Office fax:: (423) 974-6926 ***************************************************************** ---------- > From: Timothy Burbery > To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > Subject: Satan as Cromwell? > Date: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 6:14 AM > > > > Fellow Listers: > > Do any books or essays (Old Historical, I'd imagine, though perhaps not) > argue that Satan's characterization in *PL* is based, in part, on Cromwell? > I'm thinking of how both plead "necessity" to justify their actions ... I > suspect this is an old point in Milton criticism, but I'm just not sure > where to find discussion(s) on it. Thanks in advance. > > Tim Burbery > Marshall University > From: Roy Flannagan [flannaga@oak.cats.ohiou.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 12:38 PM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Riverside Milton, second printing, with changes you suggested Hello, everyone, I am pleased to announce that Houghton Mifflin has ordered a second issue of the Riverside Milton--not actually a new edition because the pagination will remain the same, but a fully-corrected reprint, with changes made based on what readers have recommended to me via the e-mail messages I asked for in the Preface. Changes include corrections to the text, emendations of notes for greater clarity, updating of information, and, in some rare cases, additions (I could fit the letter to Heimbach on p. 1056, so I did). The Chronology now fills both sets of end-papers neatly and includes much new information gleaned from Gordon Campbell's A Milton Chronology. What this means, I believe, is that books ordered for fall semester or quarter will all be of the second issue. Let me express here extreme gratitude for all of the useful suggestions you have sent me. This edition is very much a community affair, and this list represents that community. Roy Flannagan From: Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:08 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request John Creaser makes an excellent point, below, and one that has been studied from a sociological perspective via Kohlberg's levels of morality. It is not what you choose, but why you choose it: "what's in it for me" (because society would approve/ disapprove, the neighbors would be scandalized, my mommy or daddy wouldn't like me, my husband/wife wouldn't love me anymore) is at the lowest end of the spectrum, and "because I can do no other" (pace Luther) is at the other. Fear of punishment/hope of reward have no place in true ethical considerations, so to me the question is moot. Being an atheist, or being an every-Sunday-in-your-best-suit churchgoer does not make you a moral being: apprehending the Good, and wanting to participate in it *for its own sake* (whether your name for it is Buddah or Jesus or YHVH or Allah or simply "what's right") is what makes you moral . . . not your belief in hell or heaven. He (or she) least deserves my trust who is motivated only by reward or punishment: remove the carrot (or the stick), and that paragon of virtue will do whatever would have come naturally, had the incentive/disincentive not been there to deter him. Best to all, Carol Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: "J W Creaser" To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Request > Presumably the question which ends the message below--Why not be selfish, > if you're an atheist?--is coat-trailing. One answer well worth considering > was given long ago, by George Eliot in the closing section of her essay > `Worldliness and Other-Worldliness: the Poet Young' (1857). For example: > > `I [the representative unbeliever] am just and honest, not because I expect > to live in another world, but because, having felt the pain of injustice > and dishonesty towards myself,I have a fellow-feeling with other men, who > would suffer the same pain if I were unjust or dishonest towards them.... > It is a pang to me to witness the suffering of a fellow-being, and I feel > his suffering the more acutely because he is mortal.... And in opposition > to your theory that a belief in immortality is the only source of virtue, I > maintain that, so far as moral action is dependent on that belief, so far > the emotion which prompts it is not yet truly moral--is still in the stage > of egoism, and has not yet attained the higher development of sympathy.' > (Essays, ed. T. Pinney,1963, pp. 373-4). There is much more on these lines > in the magnificent concluding pages (371-85). > > On another point in play: the `wisest fool' statement is attributed to > Henri IV of France or his minister Sully. > > John Creaser > > At 15:19 27/03/00 EST, you wrote: > >Very good elucidation, Carol, the only thing I would suggest is that you > >read Max Stirner's critique of both Marx and Feuerbach in The Ego and His > >Own (he's an atheist like yourself). > > > >I'd also like to know when the IMF started running around with guns killing > >tens of millions of people. . . > > > >:) > > > >or is it that they're just being selfish? Why not, within an atheist > >framework? > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > From: Margaret Thickstun [mthickst@hamilton.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:59 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics About Milton and Roger Williams--do I remember correctly hearing at the IMS6 in York last summer that Williams would visit Milton in London? I cannot remember from whom or in what context I heard this, so I welcome responses from other more-attentive listeners. Or, I may have made this up since I want so badly to uncover connections between Milton and the Massachusetts Bay experiment--Increase Mather, for example, was in England during the 1650s. If anyone has any information about any of this, I would appreciate receiving it. Margaret Thickstun Department of English Hamilton College 198 College Hill Rd Clinton, NY 13323 (315)859-4466 From: John Leonard [jleonard@julian.uwo.ca] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:34 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Satan as Cromwell? I cite several of Cromwell's real (and alleged) pleas of necessity in my note to "Necessity the tyrant's plea" (PL 4.393-4) in my Penguin edition of PL. I would not, however, go so far as to argue that Satan's characterization is based on Cromwell. Charles I also pleaded "necessity", as did Milton himself. John Leonard > > >Fellow Listers: > >Do any books or essays (Old Historical, I'd imagine, though perhaps not) >argue that Satan's characterization in *PL* is based, in part, on Cromwell? >I'm thinking of how both plead "necessity" to justify their actions ... I >suspect this is an old point in Milton criticism, but I'm just not sure >where to find discussion(s) on it. Thanks in advance. > >Tim Burbery >Marshall University From: Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:11 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics Hey, Gary, Professor Wilson is too modest to say so . . . but he is himself a professor, as are most of your fellow students on this list. ;o) Cheers, Carol Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: "gary patrick norris" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 3:52 AM Subject: Re: Milton's politics > > > Hugh Wilson wrote: > > > > Dear Professor Norris, > > > > Both Milton and Williams defend the value of religious toleration. In > > particular, I was thinking of Milton's _Areopagitica_ [1644] and Roger > > Williams' _The Bloody Tenet of Persecution_ [1644]. In _Leviathan_ [1651] > > and _Behemoth_, Hobbes takes a very different stance. > > Hey there Hugh, I am no professor...just a fellow student... > > Concerning the idea of religious toleration, though, I was wondering if you > could explain toleration. As I see it, Milton presents a tolerance through > heavy blinders. > > Although, tolerance can be understood as the capacity to withstand > the ideas of others, I feel that Milton held toleration as the capacity to > withstand hardship or pain. > > Gary Norris > > From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:34 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request In a message dated 4/5/00 5:10:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, creaser@holl.u-net.com writes: << `I [the representative unbeliever] am just and honest, not because I expect to live in another world, but because, having felt the pain of injustice and dishonesty towards myself,I have a fellow-feeling with other men, who would suffer the same pain if I were unjust or dishonest towards them.... It is a pang to me to witness the suffering of a fellow-being, and I feel his suffering the more acutely because he is mortal.... And in opposition to your theory that a belief in immortality is the only source of virtue, I maintain that, so far as moral action is dependent on that belief, so far the emotion which prompts it is not yet truly moral--is still in the stage of egoism, and has not yet attained the higher development of sympathy.' (Essays, ed. T. Pinney,1963, pp. 373-4). There is much more on these lines in the magnificent concluding pages (371-85). >> Again, compassion is a choice still unmotivated. We can make unmotivated choices, and the individual can choose to be compassionate apart from any theism, but can an individual DEMAND compassion of others? And of the IMF? And if we were to do so, upon what basis could we do so? Theists would say that our natural feelings of compassion vindicate the moral law and sense of eternity in our hearts, rather than thinking that we are unmotivated to compassion apart from any sense of the eternal... Jim From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:29 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request <> No, the real question is what selfishness has to do with running around killing people, if indeed they are doing that. Such is the action of a person with no self, not of a person whose primary concern is the improvement of his own soul--i.e., a truly selfish person. But this sort of accusation is the stock in trade of the religious. $ From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:35 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request In a message dated 4/5/00 5:12:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjksezth@fs1.ce.umist.ac.uk writes: << Speaking as a non atheist myself I nevertheless cannot see why you assume that an "atheist framework" would imply selfishness. Does this mean that Christians (for example) are only (supposedly) "unselfish" because they fear God's wrath if they behave otherwise? I think the profane Humanist approach to moral good is entirely as valid as any religious one. >> Nope, you misunderstand me. But that may have been my fault, I haven't reread my post. Sorry. I didn't say an atheist framework implied selfishness, but questioned upon what basis can an atheist framework demand unselfishness of others. Jim From: Kevin Donovan [kdonovan@mtsu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:36 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Christopher Marlowe question There well may be numerological significance, but Marlowe took the 24 years from his source, The History of the Damnable Life and Deserved Death of Doctor John Faustus. From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 12:32 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics In a message dated 4/3/00 12:22:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu writes: << Dear Professor Norris, Both Milton and Williams defend the value of religious toleration. In particular, I was thinking of Milton's _Areopagitica_ [1644] and Roger Williams' _The Bloody Tenet of Persecution_ [1644]. In _Leviathan_ [1651] and _Behemoth_, Hobbes takes a very different stance. Hugh Wilson hwilson@door.net (806) 747-8830 >> Doesn't Milton's Areopagitica stop short -- far short -- of toleration for Catholics? It seems that within the context of the Areo. Catholicism is represented solely as a force for the suppression of free discourse, and for that reason it must itself be suppressed. Milton's caricature seems justified given the restrictions the Catholic church placed on free expression in Ireland in the early to middle part of the 20th century, but Milton's attitude still seems for limited religious tolerance. Jim From: Tony Hill [mjksezth@fs1.ce.umist.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 7:44 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:19:34 EST Subject: Re: Request To: milton-l@richmond.edu Send reply to: milton-l@richmond.edu > d also like to know when the IMF started running around with guns killing > tens of millions of people. . . > > :) > > or is it that they're just being selfish? Why not, within an atheist > framework? Speaking as a non atheist myself I nevertheless cannot see why you assume that an "atheist framework" would imply selfishness. Does this mean that Christians (for example) are only (supposedly) "unselfish" because they fear God's wrath if they behave otherwise? I think the profane Humanist approach to moral good is entirely as valid as any religious one. But I have had trouble with the original point here. It was claimed that we would only fully appreciate the greatness of PL were the ideological context, the complete social historical circumstances in which it emerged, absent. Now it is true that we could still read the work in this detached way but I wonder about how we could claim ANY understanding of meaning. I could perhaps turn up a fragment of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics which might be a shopping list or a great poem. In the absence of any point of reference I would have no way of knowing as I think Terry Eagleton points out somewhere. Can anyone help me with this? Tony Hill www.ce.umist.ac.uk From: Timothy Burbery [burbery@MARSHALL.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 7:15 AM To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Satan as Cromwell? Fellow Listers: Do any books or essays (Old Historical, I'd imagine, though perhaps not) argue that Satan's characterization in *PL* is based, in part, on Cromwell? I'm thinking of how both plead "necessity" to justify their actions ... I suspect this is an old point in Milton criticism, but I'm just not sure where to find discussion(s) on it. Thanks in advance. Tim Burbery Marshall University From: Linda Breton Tredennick [treden@darkwing.uoregon.edu] Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 1:29 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Christopher Marlowe question Is it possible that the twenty-four years/twenty-four hours could be Marlowe's nod to the unity of time? Linda Tredennick On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Jeremy Coulson wrote: > I know that this isn't exactly a Milton question, but I think I may be able > to get a satisfactory answer from this list. In "Dr. Faustus", why does > Faustus choose 24 years of omnipotence? Is there a significance to that > number or not? Of course, it could be a reference to the 24 hours in a > day, but that doesn't seem to be significant to the play. Any help would > be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > Jeremy Coulson > From: elin@dept.english.upenn.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 5:50 PM To: RENAIS-L@listserv.louisville.edu; FICINO@listserv.utoronto.ca; GEMCS-L@hofstra.edu Cc: SHAKSPER@ws.bowiestate.edu; MILTON-L@richmond.edu; SPENSER-L@lists.uoregon.edu; cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu Subject: CFP: UPenn Medieval/Renaissance Conference Apologies in advance to those of you who may receive this CFP more than once. We're trying to reach as many graduate students in medieval and Renaissance studies as we can, so please feel free to forward this post. Many thanks for your time and attention! Best, Erika Lin *************************************************************************** Call for Papers WRINKLES IN TIME: RUPTURES AND CONTINUITIES IN THE WRITING OF THE MIDDLE AGES AND THE RENAISSANCE October 7, 2000 A Graduate Student Conference at the University of Pennsylvania This conference will explore both the writings produced during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and the ways in which those periods have themselves been written to meet a variety of subsequent historical and cultural concerns. We are particularly interested in papers relating specific topics to larger theoretical questions, especially those posed by recent historicist scholarship. Potential topics may come from, but are not limited to, the following areas of interest: * periodization: historiography, terminology, cultural fantasy * literal "wrinkles" and other objects: material culture in its temporal dimension * religious reformations: innovation and conservation * transformations in gender, sex, and identity * performance: actual practices and theoretical frameworks * the genres of history-writing: chronicles, lives, history plays * marginal, "unwritten" histories * reception and revision of medieval forms in Renaissance literature * manuscript matrix / print culture * communities constructed in space and over time * monarchic regimes and dissenting forms of power Single-page abstracts for twenty-minute papers should be sent to: wrinkles@english.upenn.edu (no attachments please) by May 31, 2000. Questions about the conference may be directed to the same address. Questions and abstracts can also be sent via regular mail to: Wrinkles in Time Conference 119 Bennett Hall Department of English University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6273 From: Derek Wood [dwood@stfx.ca] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 4:42 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Christopher Marlowe question Jeremy Coulson wrote: > I know that this isn't exactly a Milton question, but I think I may be able > to get a satisfactory answer from this list. In "Dr. Faustus", why does > Faustus choose 24 years of omnipotence? It's hard to believe there isn't a numerological significance here. Faustus is 'removed' at the end of the 24th hour on his last day, i.e.of the 24th year. The last line of text draws attention to it, as Faustus does when he says, "Faustus... thine hour is almost come." The last line in the text is "Terminat hora diem; terminat Author opus." # 11 signifies sin; 32 is pleasure but also justice: Adam's judgment takes place on the 32nd day (so they're no help!) Alastair Fowler in Spenser and the Numbers of Time and A. Kent Hieatt in "The Daughters of Horus" Short Time's Endless Monument write about 12 and 24. Of course, the Faerie Queene was meant to be completed in 24 books. Faustus chooses the world instead of heaven (and receives hell). 4 was the number especially related to this world. 6 was a perfect number, the number of days God chose for creation of the earth. There may be some blasphemous Faustian logic in multiplying these. I'm sure if you could get Professor Kent Hieatt to interrupt his retirement for a few minutes, you would get more help than this is. Also, there are excellent short essays in the Spenser Encyclopedia under "number symbolism...." by Alexander Dunlop and Maren-Sofie Rostvig, especially helpful on 4, 8 and 12. (Does this sound like Sesame Street?) Best wishes, Derek Wood.. From: gary patrick norris [stroszek@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 3:53 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics Hugh Wilson wrote: > > Dear Professor Norris, > > Both Milton and Williams defend the value of religious toleration. In > particular, I was thinking of Milton's _Areopagitica_ [1644] and Roger > Williams' _The Bloody Tenet of Persecution_ [1644]. In _Leviathan_ [1651] > and _Behemoth_, Hobbes takes a very different stance. Hey there Hugh, I am no professor...just a fellow student... Concerning the idea of religious toleration, though, I was wondering if you could explain toleration. As I see it, Milton presents a tolerance through heavy blinders. Although, tolerance can be understood as the capacity to withstand the ideas of others, I feel that Milton held toleration as the capacity to withstand hardship or pain. Gary Norris From: Patrick Dolan [paddyd@zeus.ia.net] Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 10:36 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" Erasmus? Sophomore? Pat ---------- >From: "Robin Hamilton" >To: >Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" >Date: Mon, Mar 27, 2000, 3:22 PM > > > The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of Stirling, (DNB 1:276) > > refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in quotes. Can anyone help > me > > with the antecedent of the reference? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Lew Kaye-Skinner > > This sounds like a version of the description of James VI and I as "the > wisest fool in Christendom". > > Robin Hamilton > > > > From: J W Creaser [creaser@holl.u-net.com] Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 3:34 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Presumably the question which ends the message below--Why not be selfish, if you're an atheist?--is coat-trailing. One answer well worth considering was given long ago, by George Eliot in the closing section of her essay `Worldliness and Other-Worldliness: the Poet Young' (1857). For example: `I [the representative unbeliever] am just and honest, not because I expect to live in another world, but because, having felt the pain of injustice and dishonesty towards myself,I have a fellow-feeling with other men, who would suffer the same pain if I were unjust or dishonest towards them.... It is a pang to me to witness the suffering of a fellow-being, and I feel his suffering the more acutely because he is mortal.... And in opposition to your theory that a belief in immortality is the only source of virtue, I maintain that, so far as moral action is dependent on that belief, so far the emotion which prompts it is not yet truly moral--is still in the stage of egoism, and has not yet attained the higher development of sympathy.' (Essays, ed. T. Pinney,1963, pp. 373-4). There is much more on these lines in the magnificent concluding pages (371-85). On another point in play: the `wisest fool' statement is attributed to Henri IV of France or his minister Sully. John Creaser At 15:19 27/03/00 EST, you wrote: >Very good elucidation, Carol, the only thing I would suggest is that you >read Max Stirner's critique of both Marx and Feuerbach in The Ego and His >Own (he's an atheist like yourself). > >I'd also like to know when the IMF started running around with guns killing >tens of millions of people. . . > >:) > >or is it that they're just being selfish? Why not, within an atheist >framework? > >Jim > > > From: Jeremy Coulson [mrcoulson@rica.net] Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 10:04 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Christopher Marlowe question I know that this isn't exactly a Milton question, but I think I may be able to get a satisfactory answer from this list. In "Dr. Faustus", why does Faustus choose 24 years of omnipotence? Is there a significance to that number or not? Of course, it could be a reference to the 24 hours in a day, but that doesn't seem to be significant to the play. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeremy Coulson From: Robin Hamilton [Robin.Hamilton2@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 3:22 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" > The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of Stirling, (DNB 1:276) > refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in quotes. Can anyone help me > with the antecedent of the reference? > > Thanks. > > Lew Kaye-Skinner This sounds like a version of the description of James VI and I as "the wisest fool in Christendom". Robin Hamilton From: Hugh Wilson [dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 5:49 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics Dear Professor Norris, Both Milton and Williams defend the value of religious toleration. In particular, I was thinking of Milton's _Areopagitica_ [1644] and Roger Williams' _The Bloody Tenet of Persecution_ [1644]. In _Leviathan_ [1651] and _Behemoth_, Hobbes takes a very different stance. Hugh Wilson hwilson@door.net (806) 747-8830 At 10:52 AM 3/18/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >Hugh Wilson wrote: > > > > Even in his public persona, Milton > > was closer to Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn or Roger Williams than he was to > > Hobbes or Filmer. > >I would be open to hearing more about how MIlton was like Roger Williams. >At moment, I don't see it. I reread "A Key into the Language of America." >But I may be overlooking your point? > >Gary Norris > > From: Robert Appelbaum [r_appel@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 12:49 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: TENURE OF KINGS AND MAGISTRATES This book might help: New England Milton : literary reception and cultural authority in the early republic / K.P. Van Anglen. --- rwill627 wrote: > >Are there any good books out which would detail > how Milton's political > ideas > set forth in Tenure of Kings and Magistrates > influenced later political > thought especially in the newly formed United > States? > > There are various implications and > references--perhaps someone knows of a > whole book dedicated to this question. > There certainly needs to be one. > I suggest you take a good look at Quakerism and > Deism, both of which > flourished in early America, and well as the obvious > Puritanism. > Then read Wigglesworth's DAY OF DOOM.(It won't take > long--it's no PARADISE > LOST, but it was the most widely-read book in > colonial America after the > Bible and THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER.) All of the above > had a heavy influence on > political thought and blended with Milton's ideas. > Many of the settlers of > the New World came here to establish the "New > Jerusalem", and religious and > political thought were often one(Consider the third > stanza of "America the > Beautiful"--O beautiful for patriot's dream which > sees beyond the years > thine alabaster cities gleam UNDIMMED BY HUMAN > TEARS). Milton's influence > was great because he wrote widely and well in both > fields. > As to my ancestor Roger Williams, > his works most appropriate to this discussion are > THE BLOODY TENET OF PERSECUTION FOR CAUSE OF > CONSCIENCE and > QUERIES OF HIGHEST CONSIDERATION. > Rose Williams > > (." > > ===== Robert Appelbaum English Department University of Alabama at Birmingham Birmingham, AL 35294-1260 (205) 934-8571 My apologies for the commercial intrusion below: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 3:20 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Very good elucidation, Carol, the only thing I would suggest is that you read Max Stirner's critique of both Marx and Feuerbach in The Ego and His Own (he's an atheist like yourself). I'd also like to know when the IMF started running around with guns killing tens of millions of people. . . :) or is it that they're just being selfish? Why not, within an atheist framework? Jim From: David Gallagher [david.gallagher@magdalen.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 3:12 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" > The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of Stirling, (DNB 1:276) > refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in quotes. Can anyone help me > with the antecedent of the reference? Was More alluding to a related epithet with his Raphael Hythlodaeus, whose surname means 'learned in nonsense'? From: Robert Appelbaum [r_appel@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:31 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" I'd like to here about the original provenance of this too. I can add here that James VI and I was known as "the wisest fool in Christendom," which beats out Sir William by half-a-continent or so. --- Lew Kaye-Skinner wrote: > The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of > Stirling, (DNB 1:276) > refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in > quotes. Can anyone help me > with the antecedent of the reference? > > Thanks. > > Lew Kaye-Skinner > > ===== Robert Appelbaum English Department University of Alabama at Birmingham Birmingham, AL 35294-1260 (205) 934-8571 My apologies for the commercial intrusion below: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From: Tony Hill [mjksezth@fs1.ce.umist.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 7:32 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" Date sent: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:10:08 -0600 From: "Lew Kaye-Skinner" To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: "Learned Fool" Send reply to: milton-l@richmond.edu > The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of Stirling, (DNB 1:276) > refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in quotes. Can anyone help me > with the antecedent of the reference? I'm not at all sure memory serves well but I think the phrase was used to refer to King James the First (and Sixth of Scotland). Tony Hill www.ce.umist.ac.uk From: Hugh Wilson [dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 7:07 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" Wasn't King James I so regarded? I seem to remember a phrase, "the most learned fool in Christendom." Hugh At 11:10 AM 3/25/2000 -0600, you wrote: >The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of Stirling, (DNB 1:276) >refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in quotes. Can anyone help me >with the antecedent of the reference? > >Thanks. > >Lew Kaye-Skinner > > From: Michael O`Connell [oconnell@humanitas.ucsb.edu] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 3:45 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" Wasn't this King James? I'm not sure who first called him this. Does anyone know? Of course one could think of other candidates for the title as well. Michael O'Connell On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Lew Kaye-Skinner wrote: > The DNB entry for Sir William Alexander, Earl of Stirling, (DNB 1:276) > refers to "the most learned fool in Europe" in quotes. Can anyone help me > with the antecedent of the reference? > > Thanks. > > Lew Kaye-Skinner > > From: HHamlin137@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:35 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: "Learned Fool" I have always heard the label "learned fool" applied to James I, though I can't recall a source. I don't know quite how (or whether) this is relevant, but the metrical psalter purportedly written by James I was actually (or at least largely) written by Alexander. What the connection between the two men was beyond that, I don't know. Happy hunting! Hannibal Hamlin Renaissance Studies, Yale