From: M J (Mike) Logsdon [mjl@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:03 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: query about Lycidas _Milton's *Lycidas*: The Tradition and the Poem_, ed C A Patrides. A bit dated, possibly, but well worth trying to find (I don't know if it's in print or not). I still consult it every now and then, even though I'm long past anything like a literary "career." My best, -- Etc, M J "Mike" Logsdon, English-major-turned-county-water-technician Salinas, CA USA From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:47 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: <> I live in San Bernardino County, California, and ride a daily commuter train an hour and a half to Orange County, a few minutes from Disneyland. Bible reading VASTLY outweighs reading of any other book. I am very often the only person in sight reading something other than the Bible. When a passenger is not reading the Bible, he's often reading some lame take on the Bible by some lame theologian. On one hand, such things--and other cultural phenomena, such as the popularity of Dr. Laura Schlesinger's radio show--could be taken as evidence of the rising popularity of fundamentalist Chrisianity. On the other hand, as this article from REASON magazine points out (http://www.reason.com/rauch/99_06_26.html) a lot of the Christian moralizing that is going on is really just inflation of formerly dogmatic values into smarminess and ultimately humane feel-goodism. Also, after the September 11 attacks, there were reports that Americans were becoming more religious as this article points out, that appears not to be true after all: (http://www.charismanews.com/news.cgi?a=724&t=news.html) $ From: Arnold, Margaret [mjarnold@ukans.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 5:06 PM To: 'milton-l@richmond.edu' Cc: Arnold, Margaret Subject: Advice about Milton mini-course for lay folks at church The pastor at our local American Baptist Church (more liberal than the stereotypic Southern Baptists, and we observe the liturgical year, too) has asked me to consider a series of four sessions or so on Milton's life and work. He is the second pastor we've had who thinks that we base a good many images and theological ideas on Paradise Lost rather than the scriptures alone. Have any of you offered Miltonic instruction in Christian contexts? Our audiences like audio-visual materials. Some will read well while others will be intimidated. I'd welcome suggestions about sources and methods. Many thanks, Margaret Arnold University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045 785-864-2584 From: Milton-L Moderator [owner-milton-l@richmond.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:42 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: FW: Lycidas From: Jordan Matthew To: "'owner-milton-l@richmond.edu'" Subject: Lycidas Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:24:31 -0000 : X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) : X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) : For historical context, there's David Norbrook's chapter in Politics and Poetry in the english Renaissance; but I have a particular soft spot for John Leonard's essay, the reference for which I do not have to hand but which I recollect as 'Trembling Ears: The Historical Moment of Lycidas' in Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies c1990. Matt Jordan From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:01 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Calvinistic and Arminian Baptists I found an article in my old college notes from a history class on Stuart England that outlines the diversity of Baptist theology. Perhaps this will help explain (or add to) the confusion. Calvinist Baptists: The Particular Baptists -- they were hyper-Calvinistic and thought non-elect infants are damned. The Primitve Baptists -- they organized in America in the 19thC in a reaction against missionary work, which was thought to be pointless according to predestinarian theology. Isaac Backus -- influenced a purge of Arminian Baptists Charles Haddon Spurgeon Arminian Baptists: The General Baptists -- the first Baptist group, started by John Smyth and Thomas Helwys. They eventually questioned the humanity and deity of Christ. Became universalists who believed evangelism has no purpose. Benjamin Randall, a General Baptist, was rejected by the New England Baptists and founded Free Will Baptist churches in New Hampshire. The Palmer General Baptists -- they developed into the Free Will Baptists in 19thC North Carolina. Suspected Undeclared Calvinist Baptists: Thomas Collier, the first popular Baptist evangelists, muted his Calvinism to evangelize the west of England Dale Moody -- suspected Arminian on the issue of apostasy Albert Mohler at Southern Seminary Dan Knauss Marquette University, Department of English daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~faerspel ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From: Stella Revard [srevard@siue.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:30 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu; milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: query about Lycidas Besides Martin Evans' excellent article on Lycidas in the Cambridge Companion, may I also point out the article on Lycidas in Blackwell's A Companion to Milton published in 2001 and edited by Tom Corns. ---------- >From: spender@uwindsor.ca >To: milton-l@richmond.edu >Subject: query about Lycidas >Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2001, 9:47 PM > > >Dear All, > >For a course on Milton next semester, I wonder if you might suggest >thorough, engaging articles on 'Lycidas.' While I am aware of a range >scholarship on the poem, and have gleaned much from various sources, I have >never taught Milton before; could you recommend something that might be >usefully read by a third-year undergraduate seminar? > >With thanks, >Stephen > >Dr. Stephen Pender, English, University of Windsor >Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4 >spender@uwindsor.ca > From: Jean Graham [graham@tcnj.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:11 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: odd Bible-reading <005f01c17cd4$f6c06740$452401a3@plants.ox.ac.uk> Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Even though I'm near New York, I go there rarely. Did your son notice the Bible-reading prior to 9/11, or is it a consequence? Jean Graham On a related note, I ordered something from Amazon.com a couple weeks ago, and noticed that the Koran was on their list of top sellers (third place, I think). P J Stewart wrote: > > My son has just come back from 18 months in New York (where he had his 25th > birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being read > in the subway trains was the Bible. In 62 years I have never seen the Bible > being read on the London Underground. I hope I'll be pardoned for saying > that there seems to be something odd about America. > Philip Stewart > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cynthia Gilliatt" > To: "Dr. Carol Barton" ; > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: > > > -On Monday, December 03, 2001 6:58 AM -0500 "Dr. Carol Barton" > > wrote: > > > > > > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying > out > > > > slowly today? > > > > > > > > Not from what I've seen and read! > > > > > > Not nohow in Old Virginny, neither, Jameela, unless the degeneration is > so > > > slowly as to be imperceptible. > > > > Agreed from here in the Valley - you should see the Letters to the Editor > > in the local paper on topics ranging from Satanism in Harry Potter to > > eee-vo-lu-shun to which day is the "real" Sabbath...so far, no Flat > > Earthers, but I wouldn't be surprised... > > Cynthia > > > > > > > > > > ------------------- > > Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, > > English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, > > J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, > > Good Lord, deliver us. > > Member, JMU Safe Zones > > > > > > > > > > English Department > > James Madison University > > MSC 1801 > > Harrisonburg VA 22807 > > > > > > From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:44 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: He may be mistaken about what kind of Bibles they were -- most of the time, when I've looked closely, I've noticed that NYC subway passengers were reading copies of the Koran. But given what just happened to NYC, I wouldn't be surprised if more of the other type of Bibles were being carried around and read as well. Jim P J Stewart wrote: > > My son has just come back from 18 months in New York (where he had his 25th > birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being read > in the subway trains was the Bible. In 62 years I have never seen the Bible > being read on the London Underground. I hope I'll be pardoned for saying > that there seems to be something odd about America. > Philip Stewart > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cynthia Gilliatt" > To: "Dr. Carol Barton" ; > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: > > > -On Monday, December 03, 2001 6:58 AM -0500 "Dr. Carol Barton" > > wrote: > > > > > > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying > out > > > > slowly today? > > > > > > > > Not from what I've seen and read! > > > > > > Not nohow in Old Virginny, neither, Jameela, unless the degeneration is > so > > > slowly as to be imperceptible. > > > > Agreed from here in the Valley - you should see the Letters to the Editor > > in the local paper on topics ranging from Satanism in Harry Potter to > > eee-vo-lu-shun to which day is the "real" Sabbath...so far, no Flat > > Earthers, but I wouldn't be surprised... > > Cynthia > > > > > > > > > > ------------------- > > Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, > > English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, > > J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, > > Good Lord, deliver us. > > Member, JMU Safe Zones > > > > > > > > > > English Department > > James Madison University > > MSC 1801 > > Harrisonburg VA 22807 > > > > > > From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:56 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: How Milton Works id fB5EtGV04812 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu I'm having a hard time really buying some of the assertions in the article -- esp. as it relates to Fish's place in contemporary literary theory (not so much statements of Fish's importance, which is undeniable, but the reconstruction of the history). First, Oakes asserts that Fish was doing a completely new thing in his approach to Milton in _Surprised by Sin_: <> The impression you get from this point on in Oakes' text is that everyone was doing pretty standard formalist readings until Fish's book in 1967. Then if you read on further down... <> So, eh, what was the climate? Was it a stodgy (Oakes' word) Wimsattian New Critical Approach, or a "1960's radicalism" that would view the work of people like E.D. Hirsch as anachronism. Notice both Hirsh's book and Fish's were published in the same year -- 1967. The truth is that both were pretty current. You have Derrida's "Structure, Sign and Play..." in 1966, Susan Sontag, then Fish and others, and on the other hand most of criticism I've read from this period tends to sound like it could have been written in the 50s, or 40s, or 30s... Fish is an important figure, the creator of **a movement,** but he's one important figure among many and was reflective of an intellectual current that would have flowed on had he been actively writing or not... Jim From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:45 PM To: Rose Williams Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Williams on Southern Baptists Thanks so much, Rose, for your authoritative and graceful post which I hope will somewhat close the can of worms I'd opened. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax From: Norman Burns [nburns@binghamton.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:07 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: How Milton Works Those interested in How Fish Works will be interested in an intelligent and provocative (and long) review of _How Milton Works_ in the November issue of _First Things_ http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0111/articles/oakes.html . In it Edward T. Oakes perceives that Fish elaborates a critique of modernity and post-modernity throughout the book. He concludes that Fish has given us "the most remarkable works of Milton interpretation in our generation." That the politics of the work should be the review's central focus and that these particular recantations (if recantations they be) should find such a welcome is not surprising in a journal whose Editorial Board includes Midge Decter and Michael Novak. In the larger scene, those who grieve the recent death of the print edition of _Lingua Franca_ and may not already know where to seek substitute organs of opinion, I can recommend the Arts & Letters Daily http://www.aldaily.com/ for its links to a wide range of opinionated websites (including _First Things_ as well as the online editions of _Lingua Franca_ (for how long?), _Dissent_, and _Partisan Review_. --Norm Burns At 10:34 AM 12/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Fish is a constant recantation of himself. Half the time his thought is >evolving, the other half of the time he's arguing both ends against the >middle... > >Jim > > > Does anyone share by feeling that How Milton Works might be construed > as an > > at least partial recantation of certain positions adopted in Surprised by > > Sin? > > > > Yours > > > > Matthew Jordan From: Joseph Black [jlblack@utk.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:27 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: query about Lycidas Hi Stephen: You've almost certainly already thought of looking at this, but just in case: one of the more useful pieces I found for *teaching* Lycidas is J. Martin Evans' chapter in the Cambridge Companion to Milton. Lots he doesn't address, but he offers a clear narrative line through the poem (something my students certainly need), and is good on poem as Milton's exploration of anxities re vocation. ****************************************************************** Joseph Black Department of English McClung Tower 318 University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 jlblack@utk.edu Office phone: (865) 974-6942 Office fax: (865) 974-6926 ***************************************************************** ---------- > From: spender@uwindsor.ca > To: milton-l@richmond.edu > Subject: query about Lycidas > Date: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:47 PM > > > Dear All, > > For a course on Milton next semester, I wonder if you might suggest > thorough, engaging articles on 'Lycidas.' While I am aware of a range > scholarship on the poem, and have gleaned much from various sources, I have > never taught Milton before; could you recommend something that might be > usefully read by a third-year undergraduate seminar? > > With thanks, > Stephen > > Dr. Stephen Pender, English, University of Windsor > Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4 > spender@uwindsor.ca From: P J Stewart [philip.stewart@plant-sciences.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:04 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Re: My son has just come back from 18 months in New York (where he had his 25th birthday on 11th September). He says the book he most often saw being read in the subway trains was the Bible. In 62 years I have never seen the Bible being read on the London Underground. I hope I'll be pardoned for saying that there seems to be something odd about America. Philip Stewart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Gilliatt" To: "Dr. Carol Barton" ; Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: Re: > -On Monday, December 03, 2001 6:58 AM -0500 "Dr. Carol Barton" > wrote: > > > > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying out > > > slowly today? > > > > > > Not from what I've seen and read! > > > > Not nohow in Old Virginny, neither, Jameela, unless the degeneration is so > > slowly as to be imperceptible. > > Agreed from here in the Valley - you should see the Letters to the Editor > in the local paper on topics ranging from Satanism in Harry Potter to > eee-vo-lu-shun to which day is the "real" Sabbath...so far, no Flat > Earthers, but I wouldn't be surprised... > Cynthia > > > > > ------------------- > Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, > English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, > J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, > Good Lord, deliver us. > Member, JMU Safe Zones > > > > > English Department > James Madison University > MSC 1801 > Harrisonburg VA 22807 > > > From: Peter C. Herman [herman2@mail.sdsu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:50 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: query about Lycidas I would really recommend J. Martin Evans' piece on "Lycidas" in The Cambridge Companion to Milton. It's very smart, concise, and makes superb use of Milton's classical sources. Hope this helps, Peter C. Herman At 10:47 PM 12/3/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Dear All, > >For a course on Milton next semester, I wonder if you might suggest >thorough, engaging articles on 'Lycidas.' While I am aware of a range >scholarship on the poem, and have gleaned much from various sources, I have >never taught Milton before; could you recommend something that might be >usefully read by a third-year undergraduate seminar? > >With thanks, >Stephen > >Dr. Stephen Pender, English, University of Windsor >Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4 >spender@uwindsor.ca From: Paula Loscocco [ploscocc@Barnard.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 2:07 PM To: FICINO@listserv.utoronto.ca; Milton-l@richmond.edu; emw-l@listserv.umd.edu Subject: MedRen Conference 2002 Apologies for re-posting, now with corrected email addresses. CALL FOR PAPERS "DAVID IN MEDIEVAL AND RENAISSANCE CULTURE" THE 18TH BIENNIAL BARNARD COLLEGE MEDIEVAL/RENAISSANCE CONFERENCE SATURDAY, DECEMBER 7, 2002 Sweet singer of Israel and "sacred psalmograph" (as he was sometimes called in Renaissance England), King David was also a shepherd and lion-slayer; a courtier forced to fight his royal patron; a king chosen by God but a man of blood whose sins were scarlet; a father whose lament for his rebel son Absolom has moved millions; the friend of his persecutor Saul's son, Jonathan, for whom he felt an affection "surpassing the love of women"; the lover of Bathsheba who sent her husband into battle to die and upon being rebuked by the prophet Nathan lamented in poetry still associated with penitence and self-scrutiny; and the Lord's annointed from whose house, in Christian story, eventually came the Messiah of whom he had been a figure. David's story and accomplishments, to say nothing of his sins, can be found everywhere in Medieval and Renaissance theology, Jewish and Christian biblical scholarship, sculpture, painting, glass, illustration, music, poetry, and the political mythology created by both monarchs and those who flattered or advised them. Translating the psalms was often an act of simple piety but often, too, it was an effort to regain David's mysterious Orphic powers, to merge one's own voice with his (and Christ's), to send a political or theological message, to rival mere pagan poets, and to bypass the cultural restrictions that often threatened to silence women. Singing the psalms was often an act of worship and joy, but also, after the Reformation, an act of defiance and even intimidation. To control and shape psalmody was a matter of religious and political urgency. And, in our own century, to study David and the psalms is to study the dynamic heart of Medieval and Renaissance culture. Abstracts or proposals for 20-minute papers and/or for whole panels on any aspect of David in Medieval and Renaissance culture are welcomed. Please send TWO copies of proposals, abstracts, and/or queries to the conference co-directors: ONE to Professor Anne Lake Prescott & ONE to Professor Paula Loscocco, Department of English, Barnard College, New York, NY 10027. Email submissions to both anneprescott@hotmail.com and ploscocco@barnard.edu are equally welcome. Deadline: June 1, 2002. From: Cynthia Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:54 AM To: Dr. Carol Barton; milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: -On Monday, December 03, 2001 6:58 AM -0500 "Dr. Carol Barton" wrote: > > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying out > > slowly today? > > > > Not from what I've seen and read! > > Not nohow in Old Virginny, neither, Jameela, unless the degeneration is so > slowly as to be imperceptible. Agreed from here in the Valley - you should see the Letters to the Editor in the local paper on topics ranging from Satanism in Harry Potter to eee-vo-lu-shun to which day is the "real" Sabbath...so far, no Flat Earthers, but I wouldn't be surprised... Cynthia ------------------- Cynthia Gilliatt From cowardice, that shuns new truth, English Dept. From indolence, content with half truths, J. M. U. From arrogance, that claims all truth, Good Lord, deliver us. Member, JMU Safe Zones English Department James Madison University MSC 1801 Harrisonburg VA 22807 From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:35 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Condolence announcement: Tom Kranidas Dear Fellow Miltonists, I have just learned that Tom Kranidas recently lost his brother, Van, after a protracted illness. The family has requested that those who wish to honor his memory make a small contribution to the Salvation Army, for which he had great respect. Acknowledgments may be addressed to his widow, Mrs. Evans Kranidas, 1409 Kingston Ave. Alexandria VA 22362. I know Tom would appreciate expressions of sympathy from his many friends among our ranks; if anyone needs his home address, it will be my honor to provide it. All best, Carol Barton From: spender@uwindsor.ca Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:48 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: query about Lycidas Dear All, For a course on Milton next semester, I wonder if you might suggest thorough, engaging articles on 'Lycidas.' While I am aware of a range scholarship on the poem, and have gleaned much from various sources, I have never taught Milton before; could you recommend something that might be usefully read by a third-year undergraduate seminar? With thanks, Stephen Dr. Stephen Pender, English, University of Windsor Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4 spender@uwindsor.ca From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:34 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: FW: How Milton Works Fish is a constant recantation of himself. Half the time his thought is evolving, the other half of the time he's arguing both ends against the middle... Jim > Does anyone share by feeling that How Milton Works might be construed as an > at least partial recantation of certain positions adopted in Surprised by > Sin? > > Yours > > Matthew Jordan From: Paula Loscocco [ploscocc@Barnard.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 11:59 AM To: FICINO@listserv.utoronto.ca; WWP-L@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU; Milton-l@richmond.edu; emw-l%listserv.umd.edumedren-nyu@forums.nyu.edu Subject: Barnard Medieval/Renaissance Conference 2002 CALL FOR PAPERS "DAVID IN MEDIEVAL AND RENAISSANCE CULTURE" THE 18TH BIENNIAL BARNARD COLLEGE MEDIEVAL/RENAISSANCE CONFERENCE SATURDAY, DECEMBER 7, 2002 Sweet singer of Israel and "sacred psalmograph" (as he was sometimes called in Renaissance England), King David was also a shepherd and lion-slayer; a courtier forced to fight his royal patron; a king chosen by God but a man of blood whose sins were scarlet; a father whose lament for his rebel son Absolom has moved millions; the friend of his persecutor Saul's son, Jonathan, for whom he felt an affection "surpassing the love of women"; the lover of Bathsheba who sent her husband into battle to die and upon being rebuked by the prophet Nathan lamented in poetry still associated with penitence and self-scrutiny; and the Lord's annointed from whose house, in Christian story, eventually came the Messiah of whom he had been a figure. David's story and accomplishments, to say nothing of his sins, can be found everywhere in Medieval and Renaissance theology, Jewish and Christian biblical scholarship, sculpture, painting, glass, illustration, music, poetry, and the political mythology created by both monarchs and those who flattered or advised them. Translating the psalms was often an act of simple piety but often, too, it was an effort to regain David's mysterious Orphic powers, to merge one's own voice with his (and Christ's), to send a political or theological message, to rival mere pagan poets, and to bypass the cultural restrictions that often threatened to silence women. Singing the psalms was often an act of worship and joy, but also, after the Reformation, an act of defiance and even intimidation. To control and shape psalmody was a matter of religious and political urgency. And, in our own century, to study David and the psalms is to study the dynamic heart of Medieval and Renaissance culture. Abstracts or proposals for 20-minute papers and/or for whole panels on any aspect of David in Medieval and Renaissance culture are welcomed. Please send TWO copies of proposals, abstracts, and/or queries to the conference co-directors: ONE to Professor Anne Lake Prescott & ONE to Professor Paula Loscocco, Department of English, Barnard College, New York, NY 10027. Email submissions to both anneprescott@hotmail.com and ploscoccco@barnard.edu are equally welcome. Deadline: June 1, 2002. From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:55 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <3.0.6.32.20011130114214.008518b0@imap.unb.ca> Subject: Re: Calvinist and Arminian Baptists Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:40:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu As a life-long Southern Baptist, I have some input. First, Southern Baptists have no hierarchies -- each church is autonomous. One hears a great deal about the Southern Baptist Convention, but it has no authority except what it can acquire through getting its favorites appointed or elected to positions of power, such as those on the boards of universities and seminaries. There is a Baptist Faith and Message Statement approved by the SBC in 1963, but it is merely a resolution approved by delegates and has no official standing. It was revised a few years ago by the fundamentalists (who had managed by methods I won't go into to have a majority of delegates at the annual convention) and made much stricter. It includes such controversial items as refusing to have women as official leaders and requiring wives to be submissive. The SBC also called for a boycott of Disney. The board of deacons of my medium large (4000 members) Baptist Church promptly drafted a Faith and Message Statement of our own and presented it to the congregation, which overwhelmingly approved it. We approve of women leaders; we think all members can decide individually what they think about wives and Disney. Our members can designate on their missions offerings whether they want their money to go to the SBC or to the more inclusive Cooperate Baptist Fellowship ; we have contact with both. Our preachers make much of the fact that each Christian is an individual before God, and the church is a body of believers who offer each other fellowship and support, but don't boss anybody around. As for the history of Baptists, my own ancestors came from Britain and Wales during the eighteenth century. (Some from Scotland after all that unpleasantness over Bonnie Prince Charlie). I was much amused some years ago to find a sign (which has since disappeared) in front of a church in London announcing "The Strict and Particular Baptist Church." I was afraid I might not be strict and particular enough, so I attend Spurgeon's Baptist Tabernacle instead. That place was Spartan; I am afraid they would think my church, with its Christmas greens, Advent candles, and midnight Christmas Eve service, almost Anglican. Rose Williams From: Milton-L Moderator [owner-milton-l@richmond.edu] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:04 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: FW: How Milton Works From: Jordan Matthew To: "'owner-milton-l@richmond.edu'" Subject: How Milton Works Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:40:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) Status: Does anyone share by feeling that How Milton Works might be construed as an at least partial recantation of certain positions adopted in Surprised by Sin? Yours Matthew Jordan From: Dr. Carol Barton [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 6:58 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <4.1.20011128083031.00acb540@mail.sdsu.edu> Subject: Re: Roundheads and Cavaliers Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:46:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Peter Herman asks, > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying out > slowly today? > > Not from what I've seen and read! Not nohow in Old Virginny, neither, Jameela, unless the degeneration is so slowly as to be imperceptible. Maybe it's my northeastern Puritanical sensibility, but some of the stuff I have read in student essays here--even when teaching in the adult education program--is just . . . astonishing . . . the "babdists" are alive and well and vitrually running the show. Best to all, Carol Barton From: Milton-L Moderator [owner-milton-l@richmond.edu] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:03 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: FW: Beaufort Symposium X-Sender: roy@mailbox.gwm.sc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:20:13 -0500 To: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu From: Roy Flannagan Subject: Beaufort Symposium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) Status: To all those thinking about coming to the Seventh International Milton Symposium in Beaufort, SC, next June 4-8: The program is shaping up nicely, with over 110 papers and plenary addresses scheduled over the four days, and lots of other receptions, optional tours, and a dinner or two. We will be received in several of the best-known landmarks of Beaufort (check out the long article in Travel and Leisure for this December, for current impressions of ambiance, or the New York Times of October 31, about food). I just presented us at a local Chamber of Commerce special meeting several days ago, and we feature prominently on the June calendar of local and regional events, right after the Spoleto Festival in Charleston, and two weeks before the local Gullah Festival on St. Helena’s Island. The Chamber will be celebrating “Flags over Beaufort,” with a logo featuring the flags of Spain, Scotland, England, and France, each of which has flown over the town at one time or another. The two chief hotels for the conference, the Beaufort Inn (together with the Craven House B&B) and the Sea Island Inn, are rapidly filling all their allotted spaces. There are other B&Bs near the center of town: * the Rhett House (888-480-9530, “luxurious”), * the TwoSuns Inn (800–532-4244, less pricey), and * the Port Republic Inn (843-770-0600, “luxury guest suites”). The Red Carpet Inn has a great location, near Bay St., but it is expensive for humble motel rooms. Within easy driving distance of the center of town, there are a Comfort Inn, a Best Western, a Howard Johnson, a Holiday Inn, an EconoLodge, and a Sleep Inn, all of which can be found by national chain 800 numbers, and there is the Atlantic Inn, 843-524-6024, which advertises “Best Price in Town.” The Beaufort Lodge, at 843-524-5600, is supposed to be cheap but Spartan. A student writes “The Best Inn on Boundary [843-524-3322] is cheap and nice. Their nonsmoking rooms are very clean, the water is filtered to the tap and shower, and every nonsmoking room has an air filter. I think my Mom and I spent about $50 a night there, when I came to register.” At any or all of these lodging places, ask for a conference rate for the Milton Symposium, and, if the management hesitates, give them my home number, 843-524-9407. I won’t give away what might happen in the production of Milton’s masque at the Symposium, but I am dead sure that it will be exciting, unusual, well-performed, and perhaps even kinetic. And, because there has some re-scheduling, you will be able to see it two or three times, if you like it. As tantalizing bait, I will say that one performer who knows the masque already is “out to prove that chastity can be sexy.” Roy Flannagan, Director Seventh International Milton Symposium June 4-8, 2002, Beaufort, SC From: Harvey Wheeler [verulan@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:44 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Roundheads and Cavaliers I have not followed this thread intently but have not noticed references to Karen Armstrong's new _The Battle for God_ which is the most thorough overview I know of fundamentalism and its social as well as theological effects. I do not always agree with her definitions "mythos" and "logos" but they are worth considering and might make a good topic for debate. HW -----Original Message----- From: Peter C. Herman To: milton-l@richmond.edu Date: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:00 AM Subject: Re: Roundheads and Cavaliers >Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying out >slowly today? > >Not from what I've seen and read! > >pch > >At 10:53 AM 11/27/01 -0600, you wrote: > >In response to P J Stewart, Southern fundamentalism dates back to a series > >of revivals 100+ years ago (I'm fuzzy on the exact details) rather than to > >the 17th century. The phenomenon created a biblicist culture that is > >dying out only slowly. > > > >Jameela Lares > >Associate Professor of English > >University of Southern Mississippi > >Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 > >+(601) 266-6214 ofc > >+(601) 266-5757 fax > From: Gardner Campbell [gcampbel@mwc.edu] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:14 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Southern religion id fAUFE9V26118 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu That's interesting--in my Southwestern Virginia childhood, my devoutly Southern Baptist parents took some care to instruct me that Southern Baptists were Arminian, not Calvinist. Gardner >>> jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu 11/28/01 08:45AM >>> "Arminian" won't work for the South, as the largest denomination is Baptist, which is--or at least used to be--staunchly Calvinistic. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax From: Jim Rovira [jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:19 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Southern religion The link is to a pretty hard-line Calvinist reading (spoken like a true member of the AG :) ) of Baptist (excuse me, Babtist) theology, but fairly accurate, I think. A full description of Babtist theology would include, of course, the need to fight about their theology with all comers (when outsiders are lacking, then they have to resort to fighting with themselves). Please take my tongue in cheek comments as the criticism of an insider to both Baptist and AG churches in my time ;). New England, I agree, _was_ culturally Calvinist and there's still a strong Calvinist presence. But as has been mentioned, 19th century immigration of Irish and Italians changed the demographics of the North a great deal, and the Presbyterians and Congregationalists in most places I've been to in the North is a rare bird compared to the Catholic... Jim Duncan Kinder wrote: > > Baptists can be quite Arminian. > > See, eg: > > http://www.forerunner.com/puritan/PS.Baptized_Arminianism.html > > Apparently the Arminian vs. Calvinist debate is quite a topic within Baptist > circles, to which I do not belong and concerning which I am not expert. > > Nevertheless, citing the Baptist influence within Southern life fails to > refute the thesis that, culturally, New England was Calvinist while the > South was Arminian. > > Duncan C. Kinder > duncan@neoclassicists.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jameela Lares" > To: "Duncan Kinder" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:45 AM > Subject: Southern religion > > > "Arminian" won't work for the South, as the largest denomination is > > Baptist, which is--or at least used to be--staunchly Calvinistic. > > > > Jameela Lares > > Associate Professor of English > > University of Southern Mississippi > > Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 > > +(601) 266-6214 ofc > > +(601) 266-5757 fax > > > > > > > > From: [ghmcloone@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 1:39 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Margaret Thickstun on transatlantic Puritans Margaret Thickstun's post of Feb. 27 on the significance of New England divines has put me in mind of Milton's first Cambridge tutor, William Chappell, who recommended them as reading for divinity students. In his Art of Preaching (1656), Chappell lists works by Thomas Shepard, Thomas Hooker and John Cotton under the heading, "On True Conversion." These famous New Englanders are the only authors he lists under the conversion heading, although his bibliography as a whole ("A Nomenclator of sundry Tracts, . . .) is dominated by English authors. (Both Perry Miller in The New England Mind and Daniel Shea in Spiritual Autobiography in Early America mention Chappell in this regard.) Milton could have known Thomas Shepard as well at Cambridge, whose attendance at Emmanuel partly coincided with Milton's years at Christ's. Shepard surely knew Stephen Basset, who was at Christ's with Milton, and in his autobiography cites Basset by name. The context is one of backsliding, drunkenness, and such "beastly carriage" as to rival that of the most prestigious American schools. George McLoone --- --- ghmcloone@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. From: Daniel W. Doerksen [dwd@unb.ca] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:42 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Calvinist and Arminian Baptists Baptists can be either - or maybe even neither. And, perhaps amazingly, they can mend their differences! In eastern Canada in 1905, the Calvinistic Baptists and Free Will Baptists joined together to form the United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces. The union worked so well that this summer the conference was renamed the Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches. At 11:22 AM 11/28/01 -0800, you wrote: >Baptists can be quite Arminian. > >See, eg: > >http://www.forerunner.com/puritan/PS.Baptized_Arminianism.html > >Apparently the Arminian vs. Calvinist debate is quite a topic within Baptist >circles, to which I do not belong and concerning which I am not expert. > >Nevertheless, citing the Baptist influence within Southern life fails to >refute the thesis that, culturally, New England was Calvinist while the >South was Arminian. > > >Duncan C. Kinder >duncan@neoclassicists.net > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jameela Lares" >To: "Duncan Kinder" >Cc: >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:45 AM >Subject: Southern religion > > > > "Arminian" won't work for the South, as the largest denomination is > > Baptist, which is--or at least used to be--staunchly Calvinistic. > > > > Jameela Lares > > Associate Professor of English > > University of Southern Mississippi > > Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 > > +(601) 266-6214 ofc > > +(601) 266-5757 fax > > > > > > > > > > Daniel W. Doerksen, Ph.D. Department of English, University of New Brunswick Fredericton, N.B. Canada E3B 5A3 From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:41 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Roundheads and Cavaliers On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Peter C. Herman wrote: > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying > out slowly today? > (I'm obviously in over my head here.) My impression from having lived in the South from 1971-76, and again from 1995 is that the late 19th century revivals that put "a church on every street corner" had a tremendous impact on this part of the world, even though that impact is often experienced at second hand by many Southerners. E.g., many in the "Bible belt" are resoundingly ignorant of the Bible. I know that Memphis used to boast it had more churches than gas stations, but since the population has tripled that may no longer be the case. But as has been noted, these revivals were post-Civil War and thus don't bear on the question of Cavalier/Roundhead influences on the Civil War. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Peter C. Herman wrote: > Jameela, do you mean to say that Southern fundamentalism is dying out > slowly today? > > Not from what I've seen and read! > > pch > > At 10:53 AM 11/27/01 -0600, you wrote: > >In response to P J Stewart, Southern fundamentalism dates back to a series > >of revivals 100+ years ago (I'm fuzzy on the exact details) rather than to > >the 17th century. The phenomenon created a biblicist culture that is > >dying out only slowly. > > > >Jameela Lares > >Associate Professor of English > >University of Southern Mississippi > >Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 > >+(601) 266-6214 ofc > >+(601) 266-5757 fax >