From: Richard Watkins [richard.watkins@english.oxford.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:49 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law I'm not sure that Milton's opposition to episcopacy makes his rabid anti-catholicism ok! It's not often enough appreciated that Milton is deeply offensive, from his very earliest writings, about catholics and the Roman church. Of course, you expect a certain amount of anit-Papist rhetoric in any protestant writer of the time, but Milton seems to me to harbour a nastier grudge than most. There is evidence that some of the 'friends' he made in Italy were profoundly irritated by his insensitive remarks about their faith; I think it's equally insensitive for a modern critic to champion Milton's bigoted views as the cornerstone of religious liberty. A more truly tolerationist attitude was that of Milton's friend Roger Williams, who would have readmitted the Jews and allowed Catholics to practice their religion openly. Milton, by contrast, seems to me to have argued for disestablishment because he personally held some rather bizarre and heretical opinions which, under the Long Parliament's presbyterian government, were punishable by death. Richard Watkins St. Hugh's, Oxford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rose Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:10 AM Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law > So far as I know, he never > > >rejected God, just all the people on earth who thought they owned Him. > > > > Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Milton's open-minded attitude to religion: > > > > "Popery is the only or the greatest Heresie: and he who is so forward to > > brand all others for Hereticks, the obstinate Papist, the only Heretick... > > He was also part of the "Root and Branch" faction which > petitioned Parliament to abolish EPISCOPACY and to restore the government of > the Church to the people (Allen, ENGLISH POLITICAL THOUGHT, 346f). > > Rose Williams > > From: Greg Benoit [gregwa@gregwa.com] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:47 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments i've asked students to consider milton's approach to the sovereignty of god. i've also asked them to compare milton's hell to that of dante. also had them compare milton's portrait of the fallen angels w/that of dante. i also enjoy having them compare PL w/c.s. lewis' screwtape letters. i've gotten interesting papers with all of these assignments, as well as others. -gregory c. benoit emmause bible college dubuque, ia ________________________ gregwa@gregwa.com http://www.gregwa.com From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:59 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments One assignment I've enjoyed is a term-long "lurk" on Milton-L, at the end of which the student needs to name ten strings and write up a meaty paragraph on three of them, identifying the kinds of arguments raised and, perhaps, which argument seemed to have held sway. By thus entering into the thick of Milton criticism in the making, students realize with sometimes epiphanic force that experts can actually disagree on interpretations and critical stances. Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Tobias Gregory wrote: > Fellow Miltonists, > > What writing assignments have you found particularly effective in > undergraduate Milton courses? I'm sure that among the many experienced > teachers on this list there must be many good ideas. If you would like > to share them, I would be most interested, and I imagine others on the > list would benefit as well. > > Many thanks, > > Tobias > -- > Tobias Gregory email: tobias.gregory@csun.edu > Assistant Professor of English phone: 818 677 3563 > California State University, Northridge fax: 818 677 3872 > From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:38 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law "Anti-Utopia" is exactly right. Check out the interesting review of the new book on Yeats at www.reason.com, which I just happened to be reading yesterday, which has some interesting passages on Yeats' experiences with the theocratic controls in early 20th Century Ireland. We may think Milton intolerant, what with our experience of the Vatican II church. But in his own day, Catholicism was a great threat to liberty and toleration, and Milton was not inconsistent when he argued that Catholicism should not be tolerated in the free state. This is the "paradox of toleration" which Karl Popper refers to in THE OPEN SOCIETY AND ITS ENEMIES--the tolerant state can not tolerate intolerance. Timothy Sandefur From: tristan saldana [hbeng175@csun.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:21 PM To: Milton Subject: Re: writing assignments Dear Dr. Gregory, Though I do not speak from the perspective of an "experienced teacher," I can say that I do have some experience as a student creating essays in response to effective Milton writing assignments, ones that I particularly enjoyed because I thought that they were simple yet sophisticated, sophisticated in their simplicity, ones that, in my opinion, allow the reader to enter the enoromous universe of Milton through nice, narrow, focused, little topics. (They are managable topics for a 1,500-2,000 word essay.) All of the topics specifically treat _Paradise Lost_. The following writing assignments were given by Jonathan F. S. Post in his Milton undergraduate seminar and Paul Douglas Sheets in hiw Wordsworth undergraduate seminar, both at UCLA. Post gave a range of seven topics: 1) Take any simile or pair and analyze how it (they) function. This means tracing down the allusions, working through the imagery and the comparison in detail, interpreting its effect on the reader, and finally determining its meaning in a wider thematic or stylistic context supplied by the book in which it appears or by _Paradise Lost_ as a whole. 2) Solitude and its problems: analyze the different kinds of "aloneness" in _PL_. You might begin by looking up the several meanings of "alone" in the _OED_ and then see how different figures in the poem (i.e., God, Satan, Abdiel, or Adam and Eve) compare to each other in the different kinds of solitude they manifest. 3) Imperialism/Colonization: as epic, Milton's poem is frequently said to participate in Renaissance colonialist discourse, a discourse made especially acute and resonant with the discovery of the "new" world. How does Milton's poem make use of these linked ideas? What metaphors of exploration does he adopt? Who are the imperialists and colonizers? How are they described? What defines an Imperialist? A Colonizer? 4) Milton might well be the most deeply political poet in English literature. In what way does an understanding of Milton's politics help with a reading of _Paradise Lost_? You might begin by gathering references from the poem to the subject of monarchy, for instance. Do you find the poem manifests a consistent political attitude? 5) Adam and Eve waking: Compare the different ways Milton represents the first responses-the births-of our "Grandparents." How is each described? What does it tell us about their "subjectivity," that is, their sense of self? Who is the more assured? Why? And how does this difference manifest itself in the scene and elsewhere in the poem? 6) Milton and the Visual Arts. Many scenes from _PL_ have inspired artists, of whom William Blake is the most famous. He made a series of illustrations for many of Milton's poems, including _PL_. Take one or two of these and compare visual and verbal representations. Many have now been conveniently collected in Robert N. Essicks recent _William Blake at the Huntington_ (1994). 7) _Paradise Lost_ is an epic of erotic and spiritual love, with many kinds of love described: male-female; male-male; angel to angel; man to God; father to son; God to his Creation; poet and his muse. Which do you think is the most important to Milton? Sheets's assignment is to write 500-word essay comparing Eden's moon rise in _Paradise Lost_ (IV.597-609) to Wordsworth's "A Night-piece" (1798). His suggestion is to look carefully at how the writer's choice of words, use of figurative language, and selection and presentation of images effect the representation of "nature" and its relation to the reader. (This topic is perhaps designed more to evoke a more Wordsworthian response than one which gets at issues that are fundamental to comprehending Milton.) I hope these are useful. I also have, if anyone is interested, a list of the graduate course readings, and a mixture of other pedagogical devices that Post had chosen for the Milton graduate seminar. (One such device was a handout of the last two pages of Edward Snow's introduction to _Inside Bruegel: The Play of Images in Children's Games_ in which Snow contextualizes Nietzsche's advocation of "lento," slow reading, as the prime act of the philologist.) But if there was one critical reading that Post kept returning to, and has always continued to return to, in so far as it concerns Milton, it is Dr. Johnson's account in the _Lives_. Post believes that any student who wants to begin to learn about Milton ought to read Johnson's "life of Milton." I quote Post's syllabus: Although it may not be apparent from a look at current criticism generated by the Milton industry, Samuel Johnson's "life of Milton" remains the single indispensible introduction to Milton, and I assume everyone will, at some point, curl up with a copy and treat themselves to one of the great critical reads of a lifetime. Tristan Saldana On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Tobias Gregory wrote: > Fellow Miltonists, > > What writing assignments have you found particularly effective in > undergraduate Milton courses? I'm sure that among the many experienced > teachers on this list there must be many good ideas. If you would like > to share them, I would be most interested, and I imagine others on the > list would benefit as well. > > Many thanks, > > Tobias > -- > Tobias Gregory email: tobias.gregory@csun.edu > Assistant Professor of English phone: 818 677 3563 > California State University, Northridge fax: 818 677 3872 > > From: Sara van den Berg [vandens@SLU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:32 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball Does this give new meaning to Milton's desire to "sport with Amaryllis"? Perhaps Milton was ahead of his time in allowing women on the team? Sara van den Berg durocher@stolaf.edu wrote: > > > > If the silly season may be extended a tad more, I'd like to note that > > numerous baseball fans have rejoiced with me to note in l. 163 of _Lycidas_ > > that Milton proleptically saw that the angels could be expected to join the > > Bambino, apotheosized like Elijah, in mourning Lycidas. > > --Norm Burns > > > > > > You are quite right, Norm. Reading one line further in > _Lycidas_, I see: > > And O, ye Dolphins, waft the hapless youth. > > Time to exchange the oiled mitt for the pigskin? Maybe I should stick > to allusions to the Romans? > > Fondly, Rich DuRocher From: Peter C. Herman [herman2@mail.sdsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:06 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments Here's an assignment that has had mixed results. I ask students to choose a classical allusion in one of the earlier (meaning, not PL) poems, to look up the allusion in both Ovid (where they usually come from) and the various mythographic manuals I have put on reserve, and then to write a short piece on what Milton is doing with that allusion. Why it is there, how does it function thematically. For example, the use of Orpheus in L'Allegro/Penseroso, or in Lycidas. Peter C. Herman At 05:37 PM 2/7/01 -0800, you wrote: >Fellow Miltonists, > >What writing assignments have you found particularly effective in >undergraduate Milton courses? I'm sure that among the many experienced >teachers on this list there must be many good ideas. If you would like >to share them, I would be most interested, and I imagine others on the >list would benefit as well. > >Many thanks, > >Tobias >-- >Tobias Gregory email: tobias.gregory@csun.edu >Assistant Professor of English phone: 818 677 3563 >California State University, Northridge fax: 818 677 3872 From: Al Shoaf [rashoaf@clas.ufl.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:11 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: rashoaf@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments I have had very good luck with the following, which is based, as you will know, on a venerable insight in PL studies. For the _first_ assignment in my upper-division undergraduate seminar on Milton, I give students a concordance of the word "high" and its various forms in the first three books of PL and ask them to analyze what happens with and to the word in these books. Among many benefits to the students, this assignment helps them see early and clearly that words in PL are quick and changing, never static, always challenging the reader by the energy of their polysemy and the paradoxes of their positions. Al Shoaf At 05:37 PM 02/07/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Fellow Miltonists, > >What writing assignments have you found particularly effective in >undergraduate Milton courses? I'm sure that among the many experienced >teachers on this list there must be many good ideas. If you would like >to share them, I would be most interested, and I imagine others on the >list would benefit as well. > >Many thanks, > >Tobias >-- >Tobias Gregory email: tobias.gregory@csun.edu >Assistant Professor of English phone: 818 677 3563 >California State University, Northridge fax: 818 677 3872 > From: Cynthia A. Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:25 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments In my undergraduate class I assign a short essay each week, as we read through the earlier poetry and then Paradise Lost. Here are some of them: After we talk about JM's life, sense of vocation, look at relevant sonnets, I ask students to consider their own lives and ambitions in terms of vocation - do they have one? What would it be like to be thwarted in it? For Lycidas, I ask them to write about their own experience of funerals and death and how they see the relationships between ritual/formality and emotion. They will have read Dr. Johnson's strictures. For the Masque, I invite them to write a grant proposal for a modern production, including a list of proposed cast members [for which they can reverse the ravages of time or bring actors back from the dead.] Responses have ranged from rather conventional movies to 'toons, a rock opera, and a music video. I also have more conventional assignments in explication and analysis. Cynthia G. -- JMU SAFE ZONES PARTICIPANT Cynthia A. Gilliatt English Department MSC 1801 James Madison University Harrisonburg VA 22807 gilliaca@jmu.edu http://raven.jmu.edu/~gilliaca/ 540-568-3762 or 6202 From: J W Creaser [creaser@holl.u-net.com] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 7:54 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Miltoniana During the recent discussions of memorials to Milton in England, it has been pointed out that he is commemorated in a stained-glass window in Harris Manchester College, Oxford, which was founded in the nineteeth-century as a centre for Unitarianism. It might be added that 200 yards along the road is Mansfield College, which was founded in the 1880s as a centre for Congregationalism (and which, like Manchester, is now a full college of the university). Prominent on the tower of Mansfield's lovely Victorian Gothic buildings by Basil Champneys--where a saint or king might normally stand, or the Virgin Mary in a Catholic foundation--is a statue of Milton. Would the poet have thought such placing a fitting irony or a 'bad eminence'? For anyone who might want to pursue the more dubious stretches of the Milton trail, prominently displayed in the High Church setting of Tewkesbury Abbey there is a 17th-century organ which, it is proudly claimed, comes from Hampton Court, where it was played by Milton in the presence of Cromwell--no doubt with 'volant touch'. John Creaser From: Margaret Thickstun [mthickst@hamilton.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:10 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments Tobias Gregory--here are topics on Paradise Lost that I have found useful--and often studetns take directions I hadn't anticipated, which is always enjoyable. Also, when I teach Milton, I always begin with Paradise Lost, and I set two explication assignments very early (the epic similes are good passages) to make sure that the students engage his syntax and to assure me that they actually understand what they are reading (if they don't, or have screwy ideas about the relationship about how poetry communicates ideas, then I find out in time to address these problems!). Best of luck--Margaret Thickstun 1) Consider the role of the good angels in the poem--Uriel, Gabriel, and the angelic guard in Eden (Book 3.621-742; 4:115-130, 549-590, 776-1015; Book 10.18-39.); Raphael (Books 5-8); and Abdiel and the warriors in Heaven (Abdiel, Book 5:803-Book 6). What does their behavior reveal about Milton's idea of Christian heroism? Or what kinds of models do the good angels offer Adam and Eve and the regenerate reader? If you find this topic too large, you may focus on one group of angels or one incident. 2) Milton has filled Paradise Lost with parallel passages. Choose a pair--Satan's encounter with Sin and Death in Book 2 and his encounter with Zephon, Ithuriel, and Gabriel in Book 4; Eve's account of her birth in Book 4 and Adam's account of his birth in Book 8; Sin's account of Satan's evil thought in Book 2 and Eve's account of her evil dream in Book 5; the Son's offer of self-sacrifice in Book 3 and Adam's in Book 9 (these are just a few examples). What is the relationship between these two passages? How does the pairing that you have chosen illuminate the central issues of the poem? How does their sequence help the poem to educate its reader? You may NOT compare the two Councils or compare Satan's offer of self-sacrifice in Book 2 with the Son's offer of self-sacrifice in Book 3. Professor Samuel's essay might serve as a model for approaching this kind of topic. 3) Paradise Lost tells multiple stories of Creation--in the invocation to Book 1; in Uriel's speech at the end of Book 3; in Raphael's description in Book 7; in Adam's account of his birth in Book 8. Why does each character see something different? What do their differing perspectives contribute to the poem's sense of what God is like? OR why do the accounts come in this particular order? How do they build upon each other? 4) Choose a scene that you find particularly complex, problematic, or compelling. How does Milton use this scene as part of his effort to show that the Fall is not inevitable? 5) Critics often refer to the narrator as a character in Paradise Lost. Choose one section of the poem--an invocation or a section in which the narrator comments frequently (any episode involving Satan). Why does he intrude so much of his personal situation into the poem? How does Milton use the narrator in this poem? Margaret Thickstun Department of English Hamilton College 198 College Hill Rd Clinton, NY 13323 (315)859-4466 From: John Leonard [jleonard@uwo.ca] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:32 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: writing assignments >Fellow Miltonists, > >What writing assignments have you found particularly effective in >undergraduate Milton courses? I'm sure that among the many experienced >teachers on this list there must be many good ideas. If you would like >to share them, I would be most interested, and I imagine others on the >list would benefit as well. > >Many thanks, > >Tobias >-- It's a good idea, but by sharing our questions we run the risk that dishonest students will share their answers. There is a thriving internet industry of plagiarized papers. John Leonard From: Cynthia A. Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:12 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball And one more silly ... What did JM yell when a neighboring hound ravaged his crop of cantalopes? "Hence, loathed melon collie!" BadaBOOM! Cynthia G. On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:47:45 -0600 (CST) durocher@stolaf.edu wrote: > > > > If the silly season may be extended a tad more, I'd like to note that > > numerous baseball fans have rejoiced with me to note in l. 163 of _Lycidas_ > > that Milton proleptically saw that the angels could be expected to join the > > Bambino, apotheosized like Elijah, in mourning Lycidas. > > --Norm Burns > > > > > > You are quite right, Norm. Reading one line further in > _Lycidas_, I see: > > And O, ye Dolphins, waft the hapless youth. > > Time to exchange the oiled mitt for the pigskin? Maybe I should stick > to allusions to the Romans? > > Fondly, Rich DuRocher > -- JMU SAFE ZONES PARTICIPANT Cynthia A. Gilliatt English Department MSC 1801 James Madison University Harrisonburg VA 22807 gilliaca@jmu.edu http://raven.jmu.edu/~gilliaca/ 540-568-3762 or 6202 From: Tobias Gregory [tobias.gregory@csun.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:37 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: writing assignments Fellow Miltonists, What writing assignments have you found particularly effective in undergraduate Milton courses? I'm sure that among the many experienced teachers on this list there must be many good ideas. If you would like to share them, I would be most interested, and I imagine others on the list would benefit as well. Many thanks, Tobias -- Tobias Gregory email: tobias.gregory@csun.edu Assistant Professor of English phone: 818 677 3563 California State University, Northridge fax: 818 677 3872 From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:11 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 20:25:30 "Seb Perry" writes: > > Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Milton's open-minded attitude to > religion: > > "Popery is the only or the greatest Heresie: and he who is so > forward to > brand all others for Hereticks, the obstinate Papist, the only > Heretick... > > "Having shown thus, that Popery, as being Idolatrous, is not to be > tolerated > either in Public or in Private; it must be now thought how to remove > it and > hinder the growth thereof, I mean in our Natives, and not > Forreigners, > Privileg'd by the Law of Nations." (*Of True Religion*, YP > 8:421,431) > > So hurrah for English Liberty! (Unless you're a Catholic, that > is...) > > Seb Perry. Eric Voegelin's comments on Of True Religion are to the point: Milton was a "Totalitarian National Scripturalist." Dan Knauss Department of English, Marquette University daniel.knauss@marquette.edu - tiresias@juno.com [Milton writes in Of True Religion ,1673:] Catholic worship cannot be tolerated "without grievous and unsufferable scandal giv'n to all consciencious Beholders." And he leaves it to the civil magistrate to consider whether Catholics in England can be tolerated at all, even without public worship. If Catholics should complain that their conscience is violated if the celebration of the mass is not permitted to them, he replies that "we have not warrant to regard Conscience which is not founded on Scripture." . . . . Radical scripturalism has become, in the field of social technique, the instrument through which the conscience of man can be kept within the limits of national jurisdiction. Milton goes even further in his scripturalism: he expects everybody to do his duty and to use the opportunity offered by the English Bible translation for becoming thoroughly acquainted with Scripture. "Neither let the Countryman, the Tradesman, the Lawyer, the Physician, the Statesman, excuse himself by his much business from the studious reading thereof. . . ." Using a modern category, we might say that Milton was a totalitarian National Scripturalist. . . . CW Vol 25 (HPI-VII), Chapter 2, THE ENGLISH REVOLUTION § 13. Milton, pp 94-95. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: AntiUtopia@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:30 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law > So hurrah for English Liberty! (Unless you're a Catholic, that is...) > > When I was researching the Areopagitica one of my side interests was Milton's attitude toward Catholicism. No doubt he disagreed with Catholicism the way any good Puritan (or pseudo-Puritan, or even Anglican...perhaps I should just say Dissenter?) should. But in the Areopagitica it seems that Catholics aren't lambasted because of their "false doctrine" nearly as much as you'd think (that does happen, though). Rather, the threat to English liberty (at least, English freedom of expression) the rise of Catholicism would present seemed to be Milton's first concern in the Areopagitica, at least. Unfortunately, I didn't see **why** Milton took it for granted that the rise of Catholicism would pose at threat to freedom of expression in England, only **that** it would present such a threat (I don't think I need to go into English politics immediately prior to the English civil war to provoke some ideas here...). However, at the same time I was studying the Areopagitica I was also studying 20th century Irish literature, and saw the effects that the rise and dominance of Catholicism (politically as well as spiritually) had in early 20th century Ireland (censorship abounded), and concluded that for whatever reasons Milton held that opinion, he was probably right... Jim From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:10 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law So far as I know, he never > >rejected God, just all the people on earth who thought they owned Him. > > Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Milton's open-minded attitude to religion: > > "Popery is the only or the greatest Heresie: and he who is so forward to > brand all others for Hereticks, the obstinate Papist, the only Heretick... He was also part of the "Root and Branch" faction which petitioned Parliament to abolish EPISCOPACY and to restore the government of the Church to the people (Allen, ENGLISH POLITICAL THOUGHT, 346f). Rose Williams From: durocher@stolaf.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:48 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball > > If the silly season may be extended a tad more, I'd like to note that > numerous baseball fans have rejoiced with me to note in l. 163 of _Lycidas_ > that Milton proleptically saw that the angels could be expected to join the > Bambino, apotheosized like Elijah, in mourning Lycidas. > --Norm Burns > > You are quite right, Norm. Reading one line further in _Lycidas_, I see: And O, ye Dolphins, waft the hapless youth. Time to exchange the oiled mitt for the pigskin? Maybe I should stick to allusions to the Romans? Fondly, Rich DuRocher From: Norman Burns [nburns@binghamton.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 11:13 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball If the silly season may be extended a tad more, I'd like to note that numerous baseball fans have rejoiced with me to note in l. 163 of _Lycidas_ that Milton proleptically saw that the angels could be expected to join the Bambino, apotheosized like Elijah, in mourning Lycidas. --Norm Burns From: Jameela Lares [jlares@ocean.otr.usm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 9:13 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Trafalgar Square Woes To David Norbrook and the list: The pigeon problem in Trafalgar Square--i.e., the ban on selling feed and resulting pigeon deaths--made multi-page news in last fall's Los Angeles Times and presumably elsewhere. That PR crisis has given way to others, I take it? (I'm sure there's some appropriate Milton quote to make this query relevant to the list, even if it was just Donald Lemen Clark referring to young John Milton as a "pigeon of [St.] Paul's [School].") Jameela Lares Associate Professor of English University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5037 +(601) 266-6214 ofc +(601) 266-5757 fax From: Cynthia A. Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 8:25 AM To: Rose Williams Cc: Milton-l list Subject: Re: -- No Subject -- While we're at it ... what is the only biblical reference to baseball? Gen 1:1 .... [scroll down] "In the big inning...." On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:39:50 -0500 (EST) Rose Williams wrote: > <3A7B18AB.7C8A25D6@stfx.ca> > Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:48:27 -0000 > Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > > > > > Dear Milton fans, > > > Milton pitched for Paradise, > > > but Paradise lost. > > > Rich DuRocher > > > > Richard, > > Don't forget the return match! > > Derek. > > Reminds me of a huge billboard in Phoenix, Arizona (where the summer > temperature is often 117 F.). The sign reads: > > IF YOU THINK ITS HOT HERE, JUST WAIT. > > SIGNED GOD > -- JMU SAFE ZONES PARTICIPANT Cynthia A. Gilliatt English Department MSC 1801 James Madison University Harrisonburg VA 22807 gilliaca@jmu.edu http://raven.jmu.edu/~gilliaca/ 540-568-3762 or 6202 From: Seb Perry [sebperry@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 3:26 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law >So far as I know, he never >rejected God, just all the people on earth who thought they owned Him. Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Milton's open-minded attitude to religion: "Popery is the only or the greatest Heresie: and he who is so forward to brand all others for Hereticks, the obstinate Papist, the only Heretick... "Having shown thus, that Popery, as being Idolatrous, is not to be tolerated either in Public or in Private; it must be now thought how to remove it and hinder the growth thereof, I mean in our Natives, and not Forreigners, Privileg'd by the Law of Nations." (*Of True Religion*, YP 8:421,431) So hurrah for English Liberty! (Unless you're a Catholic, that is...) Seb Perry. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: Carol Barton, PhD [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 10:07 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law (Long) David Norbrook writes that "Readers anxious about the state of Trafalgar Square can have their minds set at rest," since the Crown's projected changes "will [only] include pedestrianisation of the north side of the square and creating an improved environment which is more accessible to pedestrians," rather than the rumored replacement of the Nelson and other "imperialist" memorials by more republican ones. "I'm sorry," he continues, "and once more surprised that this debate should seem to be considered anti-American, since my interest in a non- ecclesiastical locale reflects the strong affinity noted by many people between Milton's principles and those of the American constitution, notably separation of church and state - a principle not operative in contemporary England. But it looks like for the London authorities, pedestrianization is a more urgent priority just now!" ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ David, divorced from the propriety of the Milton Quadricentenary Window (which to me is a separate issue, wholly distinct from this part of the debate), I would like to respond with a little more history of the project: we are not as far apart philosophically as it may have seemed during the recent online discussions. After the July 1999 Symposium, I went to Stratford (which struck me as something on the order of Barthlolemew Fair: the only "authentic" piece of history at the Birthplace was a piece of acrylic- protected wattle and daub . . . but for the ground we walked on, the rest was entirely commercial, entirely artifice, including the "facts" presented by our tour guide. (The Arden House is not even the Arden House, it turns out: the authentic home is several doors down from the one people have been paying to see.) But no one could argue that the whole shebang wasn't an ostentatious memorial to the Bard -- in a Disney theme-park sort of way. All that money invested in so much tinsel and trinketry, I thought . . . and meanwhile, the Milton Cottage starves for funds, and depends almost entirely on the donations of its patrons, and the gifts of its Friends! Off to London, I walked the bridge to Southwark, excited to see the re-creation of the Globe . . . which does not stand where the original did (there are flats there now, with only a silly mosaic apron to show where the old Globe stood, and some glass- cabineted informational posters). The new one is almost impossible to spot, from bankside, because it's only "authentic" on the Thames face: the entrance is a red brick edifice, as nondescript as any other modern red brick building, and we ran into several tourists who were "searching" for it (as we had) only yards from its front door. Commercial to the hilt, "authentic" in only a crass, mercenary sort of way (or at least, that's how it struck me): they would have let us imitate real groundlings, standing up for four hours in the blazing summer sun, to see _Antony and Cleopatra_ in great discomfort, for almost what we would have paid for actual seats (had there been any in the offing). We bought tickets, thought better of it, and declined the pleasure of that experience. The annual Renaissance Festival in Crownsville, Maryland is a closer approximation of Elizabethan life. Back across the Thames, to St. Paul's. I confess I had no idea at that point where Bread St. was (though I should have remembered that Milton attended St. Paul's School): suddenly, there it was before me, all glass and glitter and modern edifice, no sign of Milton (literally, no blue plaque of Milton either), one end to the other. Not a statue, not a potted plant . . . but in the square leading to Bow Street Church (where there *is* a tiny memorial), invisible from the street, a life-size statue of . . . . JOHN SMITH??!!! By this time, I was a tinderbox of righteous indignation: they could erect that bizarre bazaar to Shakespeare in Stratford, and memorialize him in trinket and postcard form all over London, but they couldn't put up a piece of masking tape to commemorate the birthplace of their greatest epic poet, and the man who had given his eyes and most of his life to the cause of English liberty? At Bunhill Row, it was the same: the only evident (-seeming) memorial to Milton in the whole area is Milton Street, which . . . >ahem< . . . was in an earlier incarnation Grub Street. (Historical fact. It was renamed for the 19th century speculator who razed the tenements, drove out the riff-raff, and restored respectability to the vicinity.) That was the beginning of the adventure. I came home, expressed my disgust to the List, and Jameela (who had concurrently visited St. Giles, and was very favourably impressed, as she has indicated independently) suggested the placement of the Window. Our focus then was not on the *nature* of the memorial, but the *fact*: in the political sense, we were not making a "statement" beyond "Remember Milton!" It is a worthy start. Returning to London in December to establish the necessary approvals of the church and parish, and begin negotiating the design and cost, I found out that Masson had begged and pleaded with the City not to raze the house at Westminster (where Milton wrote _Eikonoklastes_). They didn't quite laugh in his face -- but they may as well have -- and down it came, sacrificed to "progress" and the Underground. I had a flat on Cheyne Walk, in Chelsea, four doors down from where a blue plaque announces the house where George Eliot died. This time, I went looking for Milton. Except for the window at St. Margaret's and the controversial memorial at Westminster (the one that was cried down as a "sacrilege" when its placement there was proposed), he is nowhere in plain sight in the City of London. The Cottage is out at Chalfont St.Giles, at over an hour's remove, on the Marylebone Line. So yes, David, I do agree that Milton himself -- and his poetry as well as his republicanism -- have been sorely, indefensibly ignored. But this is the city that could authorize the Cafe in the Crypt at St. Martin's in the Fields in that same Trafalgar Square (where 21st century people sit at little bistro tables smack atop 17th century graves, and wear the engravings off the gravestones, walking and dragging chairs across them). Surrounded by the past, too many of them seem utterly jaded to it, in every conceivable manner (except as a source of revenue). I think the greatest honor we can do Milton the freedom-fighter is to proclaim the work of his left hand, and to make people on both sides of the pond and around the world aware of the debt all republics owe him for his relentless championing of the cause of individual liberty: the Stuart dynasty is long defunct, but Milton in the long term has prevailed. Tom Kranidas is in process of doing just that, with a wonderful book called _The Eccentric Equation_ (forthcoming); and John Shawcross and Michael Lieb and Tom Corns and David Lowenstein and Achsah Guibbory and Sharon Achinstein and Charley Durham and Kris Pruitt are just some of the people who have kept prose studies of Milton alive in the meantime. I hope to contribute, too, with an essay on _Eikonoklastes_, at the Murfreesboro conference in October. Milton's prose is too seldom taught in the classroom anymore (though I was encouraged to find several of his works catalogued in the Law Library at the Library of Congress). Once our concerted efforts have regained it the place it deserves in modern literary and political studies perhaps your statue in Trafalgar Square won't be such a distant dream. There is room --and need!-- for all three, in London: the Window, the blue plaques, and a prominent memorial to John Milton, Englishman. Best to all, Carol Barton From: David Norbrook [dn44@umail.umd.edu] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:15 PM To: Carol Barton, PhD Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law (Long) Let me add only James Barry's famous 1776 picture showing Milton, Marvell, and Locke mourning the sickness of liberty in Britain and saluting the phoenix across the Atlantic. David Norbrook "Carol Barton, PhD" wrote: > > David Norbrook writes that > > "Readers anxious about the state of Trafalgar Square can have their minds > set at rest," since the Crown's projected changes "will [only] include > pedestrianisation of the north side of the square and creating an improved > environment which is more accessible to pedestrians," rather than the > rumored replacement of the Nelson and other "imperialist" memorials by > more republican ones. > > "I'm sorry," he continues, "and once more surprised that this debate > should seem to be considered anti-American, since my interest in a non- > ecclesiastical locale reflects the strong affinity noted by many people > between Milton's principles and those of the American constitution, > notably separation of church and state - a principle not operative in > contemporary England. But it looks like for the London authorities, > pedestrianization is a more urgent priority just now!" > > ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ > > David, divorced from the propriety of the Milton Quadricentenary > Window (which to me is a separate issue, wholly distinct from this > part of the debate), I would like to respond with a little more history > of the project: we are not as far apart philosophically as it may have > seemed during the recent online discussions. > > After the July 1999 Symposium, I went to Stratford (which struck > me as something on the order of Barthlolemew Fair: the only > "authentic" piece of history at the Birthplace was a piece of acrylic- > protected wattle and daub . . . but for the ground we walked on, > the rest was entirely commercial, entirely artifice, including the > "facts" presented by our tour guide. (The Arden House is not even > the Arden House, it turns out: the authentic home is several doors > down from the one people have been paying to see.) But no one > could argue that the whole shebang wasn't an ostentatious memorial > to the Bard -- in a Disney theme-park sort of way. > > All that money invested in so much tinsel and trinketry, I thought > . . . and meanwhile, the Milton Cottage starves for funds, and > depends almost entirely on the donations of its patrons, and the > gifts of its Friends! > > Off to London, I walked the bridge to Southwark, excited to see > the re-creation of the Globe . . . which does not stand where the > original did (there are flats there now, with only a silly mosaic > apron to show where the old Globe stood, and some glass- > cabineted informational posters). The new one is almost > impossible to spot, from bankside, because it's only "authentic" > on the Thames face: the entrance is a red brick edifice, as > nondescript as any other modern red brick building, and we ran > into several tourists who were "searching" for it (as we had) only > yards from its front door. Commercial to the hilt, "authentic" in > only a crass, mercenary sort of way (or at least, that's how it > struck me): they would have let us imitate real groundlings, > standing up for four hours in the blazing summer sun, to see > _Antony and Cleopatra_ in great discomfort, for almost what we > would have paid for actual seats (had there been any in the offing). > We bought tickets, thought better of it, and declined the pleasure > of that experience. The annual Renaissance Festival in Crownsville, > Maryland is a closer approximation of Elizabethan life. > > Back across the Thames, to St. Paul's. I confess I had no idea at > that point where Bread St. was (though I should have remembered > that Milton attended St. Paul's School): suddenly, there it was > before me, all glass and glitter and modern edifice, no sign of Milton > (literally, no blue plaque of Milton either), one end to the other. Not > a statue, not a potted plant . . . but in the square leading to Bow > Street Church (where there *is* a tiny memorial), invisible from the > street, a life-size statue of . . . . JOHN SMITH??!!! By this time, I > was a tinderbox of righteous indignation: they could erect that bizarre > bazaar to Shakespeare in Stratford, and memorialize him in trinket > and postcard form all over London, but they couldn't put up a piece > of masking tape to commemorate the birthplace of their greatest > epic poet, and the man who had given his eyes and most of his life to > the cause of English liberty? > > At Bunhill Row, it was the same: the only evident (-seeming) > memorial to Milton in the whole area is Milton Street, which . . . > >ahem< . . . was in an earlier incarnation Grub Street. (Historical > fact. It was renamed for the 19th century speculator who razed the > tenements, drove out the riff-raff, and restored respectability to the > vicinity.) > > That was the beginning of the adventure. I came home, expressed my > disgust to the List, and Jameela (who had concurrently visited St. Giles, > and was very favourably impressed, as she has indicated independently) > suggested the placement of the Window. Our focus then was not on the > *nature* of the memorial, but the *fact*: in the political sense, we were > not making a "statement" beyond "Remember Milton!" It is a worthy > start. > > Returning to London in December to establish the necessary approvals > of the church and parish, and begin negotiating the design and cost, I > found out that Masson had begged and pleaded with the City not to > raze the house at Westminster (where Milton wrote _Eikonoklastes_). > They didn't quite laugh in his face -- but they may as well have -- and > down it came, sacrificed to "progress" and the Underground. I had a > flat on Cheyne Walk, in Chelsea, four doors down from where a blue > plaque announces the house where George Eliot died. This time, I > went looking for Milton. Except for the window at St. Margaret's and > the controversial memorial at Westminster (the one that was cried > down as a "sacrilege" when its placement there was proposed), he is > nowhere in plain sight in the City of London. The Cottage is out at > Chalfont St.Giles, at over an hour's remove, on the Marylebone Line. > > So yes, David, I do agree that Milton himself -- and his poetry as well > as his republicanism -- have been sorely, indefensibly ignored. But this > is the city that could authorize the Cafe in the Crypt at St. Martin's in > the Fields in that same Trafalgar Square (where 21st century people > sit at little bistro tables smack atop 17th century graves, and wear the > engravings off the gravestones, walking and dragging chairs across > them). Surrounded by the past, too many of them seem utterly jaded > to it, in every conceivable manner (except as a source of revenue). I > think the greatest honor we can do Milton the freedom-fighter is to > proclaim the work of his left hand, and to make people on both sides > of the pond and around the world aware of the debt all republics owe > him for his relentless championing of the cause of individual liberty: the > Stuart dynasty is long defunct, but Milton in the long term has prevailed. > Tom Kranidas is in process of doing just that, with a wonderful book > called _The Eccentric Equation_ (forthcoming); and John Shawcross > and Michael Lieb and Tom Corns and David Lowenstein and Achsah > Guibbory and Sharon Achinstein and Charley Durham and Kris Pruitt > are just some of the people who have kept prose studies of Milton > alive in the meantime. I hope to contribute, too, with an essay on > _Eikonoklastes_, at the Murfreesboro conference in October. > > Milton's prose is too seldom taught in the classroom anymore (though > I was encouraged to find several of his works catalogued in the Law > Library at the Library of Congress). Once our concerted efforts have > regained it the place it deserves in modern literary and political studies > perhaps your statue in Trafalgar Square won't be such a distant dream. > There is room --and need!-- for all three, in London: the Window, the > blue plaques, and a prominent memorial to John Milton, Englishman. > > Best to all, > > Carol Barton From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:46 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law > I'm sorry and once more surprised that this debate should seem to be > considered anti-American, since my interest in a non-ecclesiastical > locale reflects the strong affinity noted by many people between > Milton's principles and those of the American constitution, notably > separation of church and state - a principle not operative in > contemporary England. Dear David, As an enthusiastic American Anglophile, I never considered your arguments anti-American. I wondered if they had something to do with an effort to do away with the monarchy, but, as my British ancestors solved that problem for me over two hundred years ago by raising all sorts of havoc on this side of the water, I felt that was none of my business. I have deep respect for Queen Elizabeth and her mother, but that rock-star family she has... ah well, that is not my concern. I honestly do not think that Milton's place of burial, and the honors paid him there, make him any less a constitutionalist. So far as I know, he never rejected God, just all the people on earth who thought they owned Him. He objected to the destruction of beautiful stained glass windows in religious edifices (oh dear -- if you hold my feet to the fire on that one, I'll either have to search it out of my grad school notes or call on Carol Barton). Evidence seems to indicate that he wanted his father's remains and his own to rest in St. Giles. Various members of the list have pointed out that this church was no licker of royal boots, but had a mind of its own. I hope we can all go visit our memorial and be proud of it. It is being done with the greatest love and respect. >But it looks like for the London authorities, > pedestrianization is a more urgent priority just now! You have all my sympathy and understanding. If there is a "pedestrian" issue to be siezed, our government as well as yours will pounce on it in preference to more deep-seated concerns. Rose Williams From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:30 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: A little comic relief (see PL 9 and 10) Dear Carol, Thanks loads for the comic PL crisis. It reminds me a bit of Mark Twain's "Diary of Adam and Eve." Rose Williams From: Lew Kaye-Skinner [L.Kaye-Skinner@navix.net] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 10:06 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: A little comic relief (see PL 9 and 10) Isn't this largely an adaptation from Bill Cosby? I do appreciate his insightful humor greatly and feel that we should give him due credit. By the way, if I am wrong in my citation, please correct me. Lew Kaye-Skinner *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 02/04/2001, at 10:37 AM, Carol Barton, PhD wrote: >Clear DayReceived this from a friend, and thought everyone might appreciate >a >Sunday morning chuckle . . . Enjoy! -- CB > > >"One easy Prohibition . . ." > >Whenever your kids are out of control, you can take comfort from the >thought that even God's omnipotence did not extend to God's kids. >After creating heaven and earth, God created Adam and Eve. And the >first thing he said was: "Don't." > >"Don't what?" Adam replied. > >"Don't eat the forbidden fruit," God said. > >"Forbidden fruit? We got forbidden fruit? Hey, Eve . . . we got >forbidden fruit!" > >"No way!" > >"Yes, way!" > >"Don't eat that fruit!" said God. > >"Why?" > >"Because I am your Father and I said so!" said God (wondering why >He hadn't stopped after making the elephants). > >A few minutes later God saw his kids having an apple break. He was >furious! > >"Didn't I tell you not to eat the fruit?!" the First Parent demanded. > >"Uh huh," Adam replied. > >"Then why did you?" > >"I dunno" Eve answered. > >"She started it!" Adam said. > >"Did not!" > >"Did too!" > >"DID NOT!! And besides -- if you're so smart, why didn't you just >STOP me? You ate it, too!" > >"Yeah, but you ate it first!" > >Having had it with the two of them, God decided that Adam and Eve's >punishment would be that they should have children of their own. (He >did not say "and I hope they're just like you two!"--but He probably >thought it.) > >Thus the pattern was set, and it has never changed. > >But there is reassurance in this story. > >If you have persistently and lovingly tried to give them wisdom and >they haven't taken it, don't be hard on yourself. If God had trouble >handling children, what makes you think it should be a piece of cake >for you? > >Advice for the day: > >If you have a lot of stress in your life, and it gives you a headache, >do what it says on the aspirin bottle: Take two--and keep away from >children! From: Rose Williams [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 7:40 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu <3A7B18AB.7C8A25D6@stfx.ca> Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:48:27 -0000 Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu > > Dear Milton fans, > > Milton pitched for Paradise, > > but Paradise lost. > > Rich DuRocher > > Richard, > Don't forget the return match! > Derek. Reminds me of a huge billboard in Phoenix, Arizona (where the summer temperature is often 117 F.). The sign reads: IF YOU THINK ITS HOT HERE, JUST WAIT. SIGNED GOD From: David Norbrook [dn44@umail.umd.edu] Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 10:54 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and the Common Law Readers anxious about the state of Trafalgar Square can have their minds set at rest: I have received the following communication from Andrew Eyre of the Greater London Authority: While John Milton is a deserving subject for a sculpture, there are no plans at present to rearrange the statuary in Trafalgar Square. Over the coming years we are hoping to change Trafalgar Square in a number of ways primarily through the implementation of the World Squares initiative. This will include pedestrianisation of the north side of the square and creating an improved environment which is more accessible to pedestrians. I'm sorry and once more surprised that this debate should seem to be considered anti-American, since my interest in a non-ecclesiastical locale reflects the strong affinity noted by many people between Milton's principles and those of the American constitution, notably separation of church and state - a principle not operative in contemporary England. But it looks like for the London authorities, pedestrianization is a more urgent priority just now! David Norbrook From: Carol Barton, PhD [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 10:38 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: A little comic relief (see PL 9 and 10) Clear DayReceived this from a friend, and thought everyone might appreciate a Sunday morning chuckle . . . Enjoy! -- CB "One easy Prohibition . . ." Whenever your kids are out of control, you can take comfort from the thought that even God's omnipotence did not extend to God's kids. After creating heaven and earth, God created Adam and Eve. And the first thing he said was: "Don't." "Don't what?" Adam replied. "Don't eat the forbidden fruit," God said. "Forbidden fruit? We got forbidden fruit? Hey, Eve . . . we got forbidden fruit!" "No way!" "Yes, way!" "Don't eat that fruit!" said God. "Why?" "Because I am your Father and I said so!" said God (wondering why He hadn't stopped after making the elephants). A few minutes later God saw his kids having an apple break. He was furious! "Didn't I tell you not to eat the fruit?!" the First Parent demanded. "Uh huh," Adam replied. "Then why did you?" "I dunno" Eve answered. "She started it!" Adam said. "Did not!" "Did too!" "DID NOT!! And besides -- if you're so smart, why didn't you just STOP me? You ate it, too!" "Yeah, but you ate it first!" Having had it with the two of them, God decided that Adam and Eve's punishment would be that they should have children of their own. (He did not say "and I hope they're just like you two!"--but He probably thought it.) Thus the pattern was set, and it has never changed. But there is reassurance in this story. If you have persistently and lovingly tried to give them wisdom and they haven't taken it, don't be hard on yourself. If God had trouble handling children, what makes you think it should be a piece of cake for you? Advice for the day: If you have a lot of stress in your life, and it gives you a headache, do what it says on the aspirin bottle: Take two--and keep away from children! From: Sara van den Berg [vandens@SLU.EDU] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:52 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: CFP RMMRA in Ft. Collins Someone else may already have commented on this (I've only just re-joined this list), but PAMLA has had one Milton section every year, sponsored by the Milton Society of America. Sara van den Berg "James B. Fitzmaurice" wrote: > Milton List -- > > There are usually two or more sessions devoted to or involving Milton at RMMRA. > > Jim Fitzmaurice > Northern Arizona University > > The 2001 annual meeting of the Rocky Mountain Medieval and Renaissance > Association will convene in Fort Collins, Colorado, May 24-27. The theme of > the conference is "Unity and Diversity in the Middle Ages and the > Renaissance." > > Charles R. Smith (emeritus, English, and president-elect of RMMRA) and Harry > Rosenberg (History) are the conference and program chairs. Three confirmed > plenary speakers are Robert J. Brentano (University of California, Berkeley), > Sather Professor of History and past president of the Medieval Academy of > America; Professor Steven A. Epstein (University of Colorado), councillor, > Medieval Academy of America; and Professor Nancy van Deusen, (Department of > Music, Claremont Graduate School), fellow, Medieval Academy of America. > > Papers and proposed sessions on the conference theme or on other aspects of the > Medieval and Renaissance eras in the fields of literature, history, music, > philosophy, art history, religion, languages, rhetoric, or interdisciplinary > studies are welcome. Individual and panel submissions will be reviewed as > received until March 15, 2001. > > Please send one-page abstracts to Professor Harry Rosenberg, Department of > History, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523-1776 (office: > 970/491-5230; fax: 970/491-2941; e-mail: hrosenberg@vines.colostate.edu). > If you > wish to chair a session, indicate your availability and area of interest. > > We encourage you to disseminate this Call for Papers to individuals and > departments who may be interested. Please notify the organizers if there is > someone not on the current mailing list who would like more information. > > The conference hotel will be the University Park Holiday Inn, which will have a > special rate for stshe meeting. Since the conference will end late Saturday > afternoon, those who wish to sight-see in the nearby, easily accessible Rocky > Mountains (e.g. Poudre Canyon and the Cache le Poudre River or Rocky Mt. Nat'l > Park) for the balance of the weekend can take advantage of the special > conference rate through Monday, May 28th. From: Derek Wood [dwood@stfx.ca] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:30 PM To: durocher@stolaf.edu Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball > Dear Milton fans, > Milton pitched for Paradise, > but Paradise lost. > Rich DuRocher Richard, Don't forget the return match! Derek. From: John Hale [john.hale@stonebow.otago.ac.nz] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:14 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: new Milton website: Members of the list are cordially invited to browse at my "Milton at Otago" website, installed two days ago. It sits at the end of the English Department's pages, and includes some material of purely local significance. However, the first section (on "Performing PL") should interest mostpeople, and the third and fourth sections ("Researching Milton" and "De Doctrina Christiana") are aimed at the research community worldwide. The "De Doctrina" section comprises seven discussion areas, into which I have put a few of the questions so far generated by my part of the big Corns / Campbell four-year research project. I have not got going properly yet, but the website is part of getting ready. The idea is to add more questions at regular intervals, as my transcribing of the manuscript and then translating of it generate problems or suggestions or questions. The website suggests ways by which you kind, lovely, astute and knowledgeable people out there can respond. One such way, naturally, is through this list itself, or to me alone by e-mail, but a few others are suggested too. Whilst visiting the site, you might like to read around in "Deep South," the elctronic journal of my department's postgraduate students. Your own postgrads might like to browse, too, and perchance contribute mss? Just visit the /English/ part of the site, lopping off the /milton part of the address. The address is http://www.otago.ac.nz/english/milton or www.otago.ac.nz/English/milton And please, please let me know (privately!) if I have botched these directions or the website itself. I have nil experience of this fascinating medium, so have been employing a student, very capable but not into Milton or literature. Finance precludes making the website interactive at this stage. I have included some other Milton websites among the final "Miscellaneous" section. To you who run them, may I say I hope you will enjoy this publicity (but if not, let me know at once!) Could mine now be mentioned on yours, please, and will this message do as a request or should I communicate separately with you? One other piece of Milton info from the far end of the Antipodes: I am giving a paper about the "De Doctrina" in Adelaide next week, at AULLA (= Australasia's minuscule counterpart to the MLA). John Hale From: t.n.corns@bangor.ac.uk Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:41 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: British Milton Seminar 23, 17 March 01 THE BRITISH MILTON SEMINAR BMS 23 SPRING MEETING, 2001 Saturday 17 March 2001 FINAL NOTICE Venue: In the Shakespeare Memorial Library, Birmingham City Library on Saturday 17 March 2001. There will be two sessions, from 11.00 am to 12.30 pm and from 2.00 pm to 4.00 pm. In all there will be four papers with related discussions. Programme: (am) Neil Keeble (Stirling), 'Wilderness exercises: adversity, temptation, and trial in Paradise Regained'; Christophe Tournu (Grenoble)'John Milton: a 17th-century radical caught between humanism and puritanism': (pm) Karen Edwards (Exeter), 'A Milton bestiary'; Margaret Kean (Oxford) '"O brave new world": Dryden's enchanted isle or Milton's Eden?' The Library is situated conveniently close both to New Street Station and to large carparks. A map of central Birmingham is available on request. The seminar is open to academic and related staff and to postgraduate students, so do please draw it to the attention of others who may be interested. Yours sincerely Thomas N. Corns Joint Convener --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ I shall/ shall not be attending BMS 23 on Saturday 17 March 2001 Name........................................................................ ............................................... Address..................................................................... ............................................... Please reply to Professor T N Corns, Dept of English, School of Arts and Humanities, University of Wales, Bangor, Gwynedd LL57 2DG; els009@bangor.ac.uk From: James B. Fitzmaurice [jim.fitzmaurice@nau.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:25 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: CFP RMMRA in Ft. Collins Milton List -- There are usually two or more sessions devoted to or involving Milton at RMMRA. Jim Fitzmaurice Northern Arizona University The 2001 annual meeting of the Rocky Mountain Medieval and Renaissance Association will convene in Fort Collins, Colorado, May 24-27. The theme of the conference is "Unity and Diversity in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance." Charles R. Smith (emeritus, English, and president-elect of RMMRA) and Harry Rosenberg (History) are the conference and program chairs. Three confirmed plenary speakers are Robert J. Brentano (University of California, Berkeley), Sather Professor of History and past president of the Medieval Academy of America; Professor Steven A. Epstein (University of Colorado), councillor, Medieval Academy of America; and Professor Nancy van Deusen, (Department of Music, Claremont Graduate School), fellow, Medieval Academy of America. Papers and proposed sessions on the conference theme or on other aspects of the Medieval and Renaissance eras in the fields of literature, history, music, philosophy, art history, religion, languages, rhetoric, or interdisciplinary studies are welcome. Individual and panel submissions will be reviewed as received until March 15, 2001. Please send one-page abstracts to Professor Harry Rosenberg, Department of History, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523-1776 (office: 970/491-5230; fax: 970/491-2941; e-mail: hrosenberg@vines.colostate.edu). If you wish to chair a session, indicate your availability and area of interest. We encourage you to disseminate this Call for Papers to individuals and departments who may be interested. Please notify the organizers if there is someone not on the current mailing list who would like more information. The conference hotel will be the University Park Holiday Inn, which will have a special rate for stshe meeting. Since the conference will end late Saturday afternoon, those who wish to sight-see in the nearby, easily accessible Rocky Mountains (e.g. Poudre Canyon and the Cache le Poudre River or Rocky Mt. Nat'l Park) for the balance of the weekend can take advantage of the special conference rate through Monday, May 28th. From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:23 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton and the Common Law I don't think that Mr. Boocker meant that Milton was only for Englishmen. I, too, am an American who cherishes Milton as part of my own tradition--in the same way that I cherish the English common law, which--as Senator John Sherman once called it--is the great fountainhead of our liberties. (I'm told that the monument at Runnymede, in commemoration of Magna Carta, was erected by a group of American lawyers....) Like Garrison, I consider myself firmly in Milton's political party, too. So I shall be contributing to the window for my reasons--and others can contribute to it for theirs. Timothy Sandefur From: durocher@stolaf.edu Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 11:13 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton and Baseball Kolbrener" at Jan 31, 1 03:12:23 pm Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu Dear Milton fans, Milton pitched for Paradise, but Paradise lost. Rich DuRocher From: Alan Rudrum [rudrum@sfu.ca] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:54 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: The compartments of Milton's mind Carol Barton writes: I would no more start a conversation about performance-based contracting at the MSA dinner than I would quote extensively from _Samson Agonistes_ at a business meeting, and I suspect Milton was just as able to compartmentalize the poetic and polemical aspects of his persona. ************************************ Sometimes it is difficult to find language both temperate and accurately expressive, and, with all due respect to a doughty member of this list, this is one of them. So I will just say that the evidence that Milton did not TRY to compartmentalize the "poetic and polemical aspects of his persona" seems to me to be massive, as is the sum total of work in print in support of that contention. If I don't add to that sum here, it is not for lack of ammunition, but for lack of time. Alan Rudrum From: Tony Hill [Mjksezth@fs1.ce.umist.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:02 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton and America The discussion about whether or not America can have some "claim" on Milton's work leaves me a bit puzzled. Of course America can, for all sorts of social, cultural and historical reasons, but is there much point to this? I know there are some people who delight in collecting, for example, great paintings for exclusive enjoyment, in private galleries, but the truth is that all good and great art really belongs to the world, regardless of when and where it was (is) produced. The fact that I have have seen Michaelangelo's David and know that it exists is enough for me, I don't need to "own" it. In the same way I am am grateful for all of the American literature that I have enjoyed and studied and continue to enjoy and study. I really feel no need to have a kind of claim that it really British because Britain is where the American English language originates.In fact unless I am willing to appreciate the context of its production I am missing a great deal. I can fairly be described as Anglo-Saxon in origin but the term itself leaves me to wonder whether I am "Angle" or "Saxon" and again what about the bit of Irish in my family's history? As far as I can see America can have as much of a claim to Milton's literary legacy as anyone else. So can Derek Walcott, the great English languge poet from St. Lucia (whose work is influenced in parts by Milton and Shakespeare) and so can many others, but these sort of connections seem to be, to me, secondary to the real business of enjoyment and appreciation of the literature itself. I feel better having got that out. I support the Milton Window project and will be contributing. Tony Hill, Manchester, England. From: William Kolbrener [msbillk@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:12 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Milton and Baseball Eliot in pinstripes, maybe; but Milton? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Rumrich" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Milton window > As the child of immigrants, and decidedly not British ones, I would > second Stella's point. If poets were baseball players, the YANKS > would long ago have traded that crafty veteran TS Eliot (and a couple > of minor poets to be named later) to the BRITS in exchange for a > power pitcher like John Milton. > > By the way, it's been a long time since I visited, but isn't there a > window honoring Milton in the chapel for the British House of > Commons, a window subsidized by some appreciative American? I > vaguely remember thinking when I did visit that that church window > honoring Milton was pretty darn apt in its origin and situation. > > John Rumrich > > >Who says that Milton \"belongs\" to the British and not to the > >Americans who brought him to the states as part of their > >cultural heritage? As an American descended from those English > >immigrants who came to Virginia in the seventeenth century, > >I feel as can claim Milton just as Italian Americans claim > >Dante or Greek Americans Plato and Homer. Milton had an > >important part in shaping American identity in the seventeenth > >and eighteenth centuries. Too important to look on him as a > >foreign poet--not our own. > > > >Stella Revard > > > > > > > >Quoting David Boocker : > > > > > I hope I am not alone in having some concern about Carol Barton\'s most > > > recent response to David Norbrook. It reminded me of the kid who, > when his > > > \"rules\" about how to play the game are challenged, threatens to > take his > > > ball and go home. > > > > > > Let me make it clear that I write as someone who has planned to make a > > > contribution to the commemorative window. But I can\'t help but > shrink at > > > the notion that Professor Norbrook is wrong for raising his most > > > interesting > > > questions. > > > > > > There is, I think, a key critical issue manifest in the questions > raised by > > > Professor Norbrook: > > > > > > There has always been a cultural divide between British and > Americans > > > over British authors. Americans have appropriated Shakespeare and > Milton, > > > not without some consternation from the British. In the late 19th > century, > > > a number of monuments to British writers were erected in Britain, > paid for > > > by Americans. There were similar questions then about the > appropriateness > > > of those monuments, and the roles played by Americans, and I direct > anyone > > > interested to read my piece on the placement on the window at St. > > > Margaret\'s > > > in Spokesperson Milton, ed. Durham, McColgan. Matthew Arnold danced > around > > > the head of a pin trying to explain why a window in honor of Milton was > > > \"ok\" > > > given the poet\'s political associations. Arnold could only justify the > > > window by separating Milton the poet from Milton the Republican. He > was a > > > great poet. And Arnold\'s speech did not come without raising questions > > > about the \"contagion\" spawned by Americans, who have bad taste > >in language > > > in literature. > > > My concern, in this regard, is that I fear the design of the window > > > moves too far in the direction of de-politicizing Milton. The plan > is for > > > a > > > window with flowers and lines from PL; but how is that representative of > > > Milton the political man? I think in their efforts to come up with > > > something that would not offend most people, they moved too far in the > > > direction of making the window too apolitical and unreligious. I > think the > > > message of the window is simply that Milton wrote beautiful poetry. And > > > lest Professor Barton chastise me for my opinion being too late, I made > > > suggestions when they were solicited last year. > > > > > > Professor Norbrook should not be criticized for raising his > questions. > > > In the words of a Persian proverb: \"He who wants a rose must > respect the > > > thorn.\" > > > > > > David Boocker > > > Tennessee Technological University > > > > > > > > From: ekelly@uwec.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:27 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton window Re; Sara van den Berg's email--(see below)--when looking for statistics on literacy in both early modern England and the North American colonies, I came across the following statistic. In the New England colonies, the most frequently owned text, after the Bible, was *Paradise Lost*. Erna Kelly >I agree with Stella Revard. One of my ancestors, Thomas Little, fought in >Cromwell's army. On the other side, one of my husband's ancestors came to >America, >according to family legend, after a failed attempt to assassinate Milton. On a >more scholarly note, several books document the importance of Milton in early >America (George Sensabaugh, Keith Stavely, and others). > >Sara van den Berg >Saint Louis University > >srevard@siue.edu wrote: > > > Who says that Milton \"belongs\" to the British and not to the > > Americans who brought him to the states as part of their > > cultural heritage? As an American descended from those English > > immigrants who came to Virginia in the seventeenth century, > > I feel as can claim Milton just as Italian Americans claim > > Dante or Greek Americans Plato and Homer. Milton had an > > important part in shaping American identity in the seventeenth > > and eighteenth centuries. Too important to look on him as a > > foreign poet--not our own. > > > > Stella Revard > > > > Quoting David Boocker : > > > > > I hope I am not alone in having some concern about Carol Barton\'s most > > > recent response to David Norbrook. It reminded me of the kid who, >when his > > > \"rules\" about how to play the game are challenged, threatens to >take his > > > ball and go home. > > > > > > Let me make it clear that I write as someone who has planned to make a > > > contribution to the commemorative window. But I can\'t help but >shrink at > > > the notion that Professor Norbrook is wrong for raising his most > > > interesting > > > questions. > > > > > > There is, I think, a key critical issue manifest in the questions >raised by > > > Professor Norbrook: > > > > > > There has always been a cultural divide between British and >Americans > > > over British authors. Americans have appropriated Shakespeare and >Milton, > > > not without some consternation from the British. In the late 19th >century, > > > a number of monuments to British writers were erected in Britain, >paid for > > > by Americans. There were similar questions then about the >appropriateness > > > of those monuments, and the roles played by Americans, and I direct >anyone > > > interested to read my piece on the placement on the window at St. > > > Margaret\'s > > > in Spokesperson Milton, ed. Durham, McColgan. Matthew Arnold danced >around > > > the head of a pin trying to explain why a window in honor of Milton was > > > \"ok\" > > > given the poet\'s political associations. Arnold could only justify the > > > window by separating Milton the poet from Milton the Republican. He >was a > > > great poet. And Arnold\'s speech did not come without raising questions > > > about the \"contagion\" spawned by Americans, who have bad taste in >language > > > in literature. > > > My concern, in this regard, is that I fear the design of the window > > > moves too far in the direction of de-politicizing Milton. The plan >is for > > > a > > > window with flowers and lines from PL; but how is that representative of > > > Milton the political man? I think in their efforts to come up with > > > something that would not offend most people, they moved too far in the > > > direction of making the window too apolitical and unreligious. I >think the > > > message of the window is simply that Milton wrote beautiful poetry. And > > > lest Professor Barton chastise me for my opinion being too late, I made > > > suggestions when they were solicited last year. > > > > > > Professor Norbrook should not be criticized for raising his >questions. > > > In the words of a Persian proverb: \"He who wants a rose must >respect the > > > thorn.\" > > > > > > David Boocker > > > Tennessee Technological University > > > > > > > > Erna Kelly Professor of English English Department University of Wisconsin--Eau Claire 105 Garfield Avenue P.O. Box 4004 Eau Claire, WI 54702-4004 Phone: 715-836-2032 or 715-836-4082 Fax: 715-836-5996 email: ekelly@uwec.edu From: DAVID BOOCKER [DBOOCKER@tntech.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:16 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton window With all respect to Stella Revard, whose work I greatly respect, I never said that it was inappropriate for Milton to be appropriated by Americans. I have written a number of pieces on American appropriations, so I understand it very well. My point was simply that Americans and British have different relationships with Milton--they have different attitudes about his politics, for example. Arnold is case in point for the British, while the abolitionist William LLoyd Garrison saw himself as Milton's political disciple. David Boocker Department of English Tennessee Technological University From: Carol Barton, PhD [cbartonphd@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:26 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton window As a first-generation American who holds a current UK passport (because both of her parents were English), I smilingly join the others who have seconded Stella's claim for Milton as belonging to all of us. As someone steeped at the moment in _Eikonoklastes_ and _TKM_ and _Of Reformation_ and Milton's other exhortations to individual liberty, religious autonomy, and the responsibilities of a free people, I hear his voice resonating in the declaration that "We hold these truths to be self-evident," and thundering in "When in the course of human events . . . ." For the general amusement, I can admit now that (as I've already told David Norbrook in private) whilst I was arguing against putting a political "spin" on the Window in this venue (it emphatically has none, as the Project was conceived), I was arguing *for* putting republicanism back into Milton studies on another front. My chair and I are developing a "smorgasbord" Brit/American survey course for our non-majors that begins with Beowulf and ends with Eliot and Papa. He wanted to put in four or five books of _PL_; I argued for fewer, with chucks of _TKM_ and _Of Ref_ and _2Def_ and _RCG_ instead. Somewhat taken aback by that, and thinking other members of the Department would be, too, he asked why? "Because too many people know about Milton only as 'that old Puritan poet,' if they know about him at all -- and they *need* to know about this country's debt to his defenses of liberty [&c]"! Perhaps because I have always had a split personality from an occupational standpoint, I find it easier to separate the two: I would no more start a conversation about performance-based contracting at the MSA dinner than I would quote extensively from _Samson Agonistes_ at a business meeting, and I suspect Milton was just as able to compartmentalize the poetic and polemical aspects of his persona. I could in good conscience support both the Window at St. Giles and a statue to Milton the Freedom-Fighter in Trafalgar Square (instead of the Nelson?! What a concept!). Milton didn't "justify the ways of God to England": he justified the ways of God to Man. He belongs to all of those who have ears to hear, no matter what flag they're flying. Best to all, Carol Barton > Who says that Milton \"belongs\" to the British and not to the > Americans who brought him to the states as part of their > cultural heritage? As an American descended from those English > immigrants who came to Virginia in the seventeenth century, > I feel as can claim Milton just as Italian Americans claim > Dante or Greek Americans Plato and Homer. Milton had an > important part in shaping American identity in the seventeenth > and eighteenth centuries. Too important to look on him as a > foreign poet--not our own. > > Stella Revard > > > > Quoting David Boocker : > > > I hope I am not alone in having some concern about Carol Barton\'s most > > recent response to David Norbrook. It reminded me of the kid who, when his > > \"rules\" about how to play the game are challenged, threatens to take his > > ball and go home. > > > > Let me make it clear that I write as someone who has planned to make a > > contribution to the commemorative window. But I can\'t help but shrink at > > the notion that Professor Norbrook is wrong for raising his most > > interesting > > questions. > > > > There is, I think, a key critical issue manifest in the questions raised by > > Professor Norbrook: > > > > There has always been a cultural divide between British and Americans > > over British authors. Americans have appropriated Shakespeare and Milton, > > not without some consternation from the British. In the late 19th century, > > a number of monuments to British writers were erected in Britain, paid for > > by Americans. There were similar questions then about the appropriateness > > of those monuments, and the roles played by Americans, and I direct anyone > > interested to read my piece on the placement on the window at St. > > Margaret\'s > > in Spokesperson Milton, ed. Durham, McColgan. Matthew Arnold danced around > > the head of a pin trying to explain why a window in honor of Milton was > > \"ok\" > > given the poet\'s political associations. Arnold could only justify the > > window by separating Milton the poet from Milton the Republican. He was a > > great poet. And Arnold\'s speech did not come without raising questions > > about the \"contagion\" spawned by Americans, who have bad taste in language > > in literature. > > My concern, in this regard, is that I fear the design of the window > > moves too far in the direction of de-politicizing Milton. The plan is for > > a > > window with flowers and lines from PL; but how is that representative of > > Milton the political man? I think in their efforts to come up with > > something that would not offend most people, they moved too far in the > > direction of making the window too apolitical and unreligious. I think the > > message of the window is simply that Milton wrote beautiful poetry. And > > lest Professor Barton chastise me for my opinion being too late, I made > > suggestions when they were solicited last year. > > > > Professor Norbrook should not be criticized for raising his questions. > > In the words of a Persian proverb: \"He who wants a rose must respect the > > thorn.\" > > > > David Boocker > > Tennessee Technological University > > > > > > From: Chris [CORCHARD@oak.grove.iup.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 12:00 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: CORCHARD@oak.grove.iup.edu Subject: Milton window (a purely scholarly comment!) There was a query a couple of days ago about a pre-existing Milton window. The person who enquired may be interested in the essay "A Fissure in the Milton window?: Arnold's 1888 Address" by David Boocker which appears in the essay collection Spokesperson Milton ed by Charles Durham and Kristen McColgan (Associated University Presses, 1994). Boocker refers to Matthew Arnold's final public address which was given on the occasion of the unveiling of the stained-glass window in honour of Milton at Saint Margaret's church, Westminster. I think it is very pertinent in the light of recent transatlantic disputes on this subject to note that it was George Childs, the owner of the Philadelphia Public Ledger who had funded the project. But to balance out this American largesse, Boocker also notes that Arnold had been persuaded to give the address by his english friend Farrar, the Archdeacon of Westminster who had written to Childs suggesting that Milton was "'so wholly uncommemorated in England'because of the poet's politics" (126). Boocker then proceeds to outline how Arnold separated out the immortal poetry from the prose which reveals a lesser Milton, one marked by his distemperateness and his disagreeable nature. Arnold's attempt, according to Boocker, is to depoliticize Milton in order to associate the window only with his aesthetic aspects. Perhaps this essay helps up shed light on recent discussions on the list and may contribute to a more concilatory discussion. Chris Orchard