From: Carrol Cox [cbcox@ilstu.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 2:18 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request rwill627 wrote: > (and according to > the philosopher, if they do not understand it, they are doomed to repeat > it--a daunting concept) Two falsities: the source of the assertion and the assertion itself. It was not "the philosopher" (or any philosopher) but a politician who made this absurd claim. And the claim itself is false because it ignores both the enormous contingency of history *and* the historicity of history -- i.e., it is itself non-historical. It is non-historical, in fact aggressively anti-historical, because it assumes that the same context endlessly repeats itself. Granted -- this premise is Milton's own premise, but as I have argued elsewhere, the greatness of Paradise Lost will become really recognizable only when its ideas or vision are *really* dead, as unfortunately they are not yet. (Probably the prejudice against dead ideas was one basis for the unseemly grouching about Achilles on this list a couple months ago.) A classical example of history *not* repeating itself (when those in charge expected it to) was French military strategy in World War 2. They had learned the lessons of WW 1, believed this slogan, and therefore committed a one new mistake after another. This is the usual case. That is, usually we are unable to commit the mistakes of the past even if we want to -- history moves on and doesn't give us that chance. Carrol From: Bobby Eason [rayson1@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 12:27 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request I am also new to the Milton listserv (and an undergrad!), but I'd like to venture a few ideas... I am currently interested in both the Renaissance and American Studies, and I was intrigued by what Shane Wohlers had to say about Satan: "Through Satan, Milton calls into question very deep rooted systems of morality and belief that are usually not questioned today. Modern culture tends to glorify 'bad behaviour' as some kind of trumped up rebellious romantic notion. Here we see the full extent of what happens when one sets off down that often very attractive path. We admire Satan's courage to stand alone, yet we also see the blossoming pride and arrogance behind it.Its a case of virtue twisted, and its far from simple." I have often considered Satan's arrogance, but I have never thought of him in quite these terms. It seems to me that in this way, it might be possible to relate Satan to modern conceptions of the cowboy - anit-order, anti-social, anti-religious - and how those conceptions can fail when they are placed under direct scrutiny. I am not suggesting a one-to-one correlation, but it could prove an interesting line of questioning. JLE From: Phillip Sidney Horky [phorky@umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 11:05 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Paradise Regain'd 1st ed. Sender: owner-milton-l@richmond.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: milton-l@richmond.edu For anyone who has any money out there (I sure don't) or whose rare books libraries are looking for a keeper: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=283055980 (1st published Paradise Regain'd and Samson Agonistes). Yours, Phillip S. Horky University of Michigan _____________________________________________________________________ "The first and wisest of them all profess'd To know this only, that he nothing knew." -The Son, _Paradise Regain'd_ "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." _Galatians_5:13 "Dim as the borrowed beams of moon and stars To lonely, weary, wandering travellers, Is reason to the soul...." -John Dryden, _Religio Laici_ ____________________________________________________________________ Phillip Horky Student, LS&A Honors The University of Michigan Ann Arbor From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 12:25 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request I'd add that Milton should continue to have some appeal for his modern and somewhat anticipatory "postmodern" conception of space and spatial relations. Instances of scale, both large and small, can be read and taken literally in the poem--they do invite such readings--but at closer examination they deconstruct themselves in some sense. How far does Satan and his crew fall? How far below heaven is hell? Exactly how big is Satan's spear? All these measurements are given in what seem like literal, determinate terms, but they are all accommodations and are relative to things that are understood relative to something else. Finally we find that hell and heaven are internal conditions the self creates or makes of itself. Everywhere the spiritual is materialized in the poem, it is grossly materialized--Milton parodies the language and concepts in classical military epic with is angelic canon, sword-fighting, etc., but in the end the reader ought to realize that no material instruments have any real effectiveness against evil which makes its greatest assault on spiritual, emotional and intellectual levels. Dan Knauss On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:13:50 EST Cobelli@aol.com writes: > > Some thoughts: > > The incredible physical spatial relationships (Satan's fall, the War > in > Heaven, the various vistas of heaven, earth and Hell) in Paradise > Lost can > perhaps be related to modern cinematic techniques and special > effects in > science fiction movies. > > Also the ambiguity about technology (and how industrial is the city > of Satan) > and the resultant knowledge we gain as man can now clone animals and > perform > other forms of genetic engineering. > > Scott Grunow > From: Hugh Wilson [dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 6:49 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Solidarity Dear Professor Murphy, I would like to invite you to join the Milton Transcription Project. We have gathered a significant archive and we plan to make Milton's works, along with assorted Miltoniana, freely available on the internet. It seems that we have similar aims. Working in London, you will have access to valuable resources which could enhance the archive in the process of being assembled. In more direct response to your question, the neophyte twenty-first century really doesn't exist yet. It will become, at least in part, what we and others choose to make it. Rather than reacting to the interests of an imaginary audience, I think we need to perpetuate and re-create an audience. Honoring Milton is offering homage to something in the human potential. Milton's work is often exquisite, but reading, and properly understanding Milton, is never merely a sophisticated recreation for jaded aesthetes: Milton is a prophet--not in the sense of predicting the future--in terms of offering a moral judgment on the spirit of his own time. "The best of times, the worst of times. . ." His time and ours are not so very different. La lutta continua, Hugh Wilson hwilson@door.net (806) 747-8830 P.S. I second Timothy Sandefur's thoughtful and eloquent response. At 03:06 PM 3/14/2000 +0000, you wrote: > >I'm new to the Milton server, but would like to solicit the thoughts of >all you scholars and enthusiasts there in regard to the following peach >of a question: > >What worth does Milton's 'Paradise Lost' have for us today? >Why do we pick and read this text - what's in it that will resonate with >21st Century society... >I'm thinking more of thematic stuff rather than looking at it in museum >terms for the wonderful use of language or its extraordinary >structure... >What ideas in it or aspects of it or passages of it transcend the >context and resound in what men and women of the world are doing today? > >The reason I ask is that with some friends I'm looking into a project >which will hopefully bring Milton to a much wider modern audience, but >to achieve this we sense we should first establish exactly why a >contemporary crowd ought to be paying attention to this daunting work. I >of course have some thoughts myself but I very much need a welt of >opinion. > >Any thoughts/help/wisdom/whatever anyone can give me will be hugely >appreciated. > >Best wishes to all, > >Jim Murphy, >London > > From: Hugh Wilson [dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 6:45 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Milton's politics Dear Friends, On one hand, anyone who said, definitively, that Milton _was_ a "Leveller" would be reaching, but on the other hand, a categorical of Leveller sympathies seems highly questionable. Even in his public persona, Milton was closer to Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn or Roger Williams than he was to Hobbes or Filmer. Accordingly, was wondering what evidence anyone might have in mind as proof of Milton's sympathies or antipathies. For instance, it is not entirely clear how being a republican, especially a small "r" republican, precludes Leveller sympathies. The "ancient consitution" was a fairly elastic notion, and as far as I know, Milton made no protest when the monarchy was abolished. (In the _First Defense_ he hedged to allow the abstract possibility of a good earthly monarchy, but in his situation, that was only hedging.) Within the spectrum of the Parliamentary movement, Ireton was a conservative pragmatist, and I can't imagine him writing _The Tenure_ or endorsing the ideals of _Areopagitica_. As I remember it, Christopher Hill sees Milton engaged in a "dialogue" with the sects on his left. Part of this discussion may involve the operative definition of levelling and Levellers. John Milton obviously supported levelling the monarchy and abolishing the House of Lords. Although, as far as I know, Milton never endorsed leveller petitions or platforms, he never explicitly criticized them either. In all the _Concordance to the English Prose_, the cognates of the verb or noun "level" only occur about five times. As an official in the government who might exert influence from within, he might hesitate to encourage their movement publicly. In fact, Milton might have had to resist pressure to denounce the Levellers. I've misplaced my index to Masson, but wasn't Milton asked to attack them, and didn't he decline the opportunity? _Areopagitica_ shows that Milton sympathized with the sects, and the _Tenure_ shows he supported popular soveraignty. As I understand them, the restrictive schemes of _The Ready and Easy Way_ were tactical make-shifts to avoid a Restoration as part of the public was opting for a captain to lead them back to Egypt. Cheers, Hugh Wilson dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu At 01:58 PM 3/6/2000 -0500, you wrote: >NO, he was not a Leveller and for an interesting textual take on >anti-levelling >rhetoric, check out Samuel Sheppard's 1650 levelling poem that re-casts >Spenser's giant in book 5 of FQ. > >Chris Orchard > > From: SHANE WOHLERS [s_wohlers@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 6:03 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Greetings from New Zealand! This is my first time (blush) at the Milton-l mail site, so I am a little nervous with regards to how this whole thing works. So here goes... I am currently doing my Masters at Otago University in regards to Milton, specifically looking at Paradise Lost. My particular slant is to investigate Milton's handling of imagery in paradise lost, his sources, his influences, his adaptations of classical/ biblical/ literary modes (ie epic simile), use of allegory etc, and to examine the connections between the textual imagery and visual artistic responses to the text, ie early illustrators such as Madina, Lens, and romantic artists such as Blake and Martin. I also want to get my dirty little fingers on modern artistic responses to Milton's text - abstract art anyone? Its been done with chaucer so I would imagine that someone, somewhere, has had a go. Well thats me - I would love to hear from anyone with any info, comments, opinions, in regards to this. I will also attempt to contribute to this forum in any way that I can. Oh - here is a few rambling sentences now..... Seems to me that there are a lot of people out the who are passionate about Milton studies. Surely this is testament to Milton's literary prowess - the fact that he can inspire emotive responses in regards to the relevant nature of his work, even in the 21st Century. When I first read P.L I was blown away by the fact that there was a 'modern day anti-hero' operating in a text that was written in the 1600's. This malignant narcissist is slowly stripped of any redeeming features throughout the 12 books, yet we often still feel for this chap - why? He isn't an easy guy to like. Through Satan, Milton calls into question very deep rooted systems of morality and belief that are usually not questioned today. Modern culture tends to glorify 'bad behaviour' as some kind of trumped up rebellious romantic notion. Here we see the full extent of what happens when one sets off down that often very attractive path. We admire Satan's courage to stand alone, yet we also see the blossoming pride and arrogance behind it.Its a case of virtue twisted, and its far from simple. I was also intrigued by the way Milton's handling of an oh-so-old story came to life on the page. I loved the way he drew on so many varied sources - it opened up the world of classical literature for me, Homer, virgil, etc. I was fascinated by the way the language worked - complicated, intricate, beautiful, it really stands alone. Sometimes I think that the first books read like a boys own adventure story - it has that same sense of action, danger, and excitement. Funny thing is that we all know how the thing is going to end, yet we keep on reading. P.L for me is a very special text that invites me to think about the way I view myself and my relationship to the world around me. It is special in the way that it manages to envelope so many different literary forms and narratives, and makes something so magnificent out of the whole jumble.It is epic in every sense Well thats my rant, see you later. s ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: Dan Knauss [tiresias@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:32 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request I think any reader is likely to be impressed by Milton's flowing, image-laden language and the way the poem opens appeals to a cinematographic imagination. If there is such a things the common reader in the 21st century, he/she may be intrigued by PL's presentation and examination of human curiosity and the pursuit of knowledge, freedom, and power. For Milton these pursuits raise the question of limits and constraint--including limits that may be inherent in the human animal (esp. reason) as well as limits on knowledge, freedom and power that are self and/or socially imposed in order for the sake of freedom and happiness. It may be of interest in the next hundred years that these topics are raised in PL in response to some of the defining features of modernity: technological development, scientific and other theoretical attempts to comprehend and master the physical universe. Dan Knauss On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:06:17 +0000 James writes: > > I'm new to the Milton server, but would like to solicit the thoughts > of > all you scholars and enthusiasts there in regard to the following > peach > of a question: > > What worth does Milton's 'Paradise Lost' have for us today? > Why do we pick and read this text - what's in it that will resonate > with > 21st Century society... > I'm thinking more of thematic stuff rather than looking at it in > museum > terms for the wonderful use of language or its extraordinary > structure... > What ideas in it or aspects of it or passages of it transcend the > context and resound in what men and women of the world are doing > today? > > The reason I ask is that with some friends I'm looking into a > project > which will hopefully bring Milton to a much wider modern audience, > but > to achieve this we sense we should first establish exactly why a > contemporary crowd ought to be paying attention to this daunting > work. I > of course have some thoughts myself but I very much need a welt of > opinion. > > Any thoughts/help/wisdom/whatever anyone can give me will be hugely > appreciated. > > Best wishes to all, > > Jim Murphy, > London > From: rwill627 [rwill627@camalott.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 9:23 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request James, This from a marginal but enthusiastic Milton scholar--I am not the expert that many of our colleagues on the list are. If the 21st century is going to understand any of its past (and according to the philosopher, if they do not understand it, they are doomed to repeat it--a daunting concept), it must have some understanding of the Christian religion. PARADISE LOST handles major concepts of that religion in matchless beauty of language and characterization. It is not a Bible, so it should provide insight without demanding religious belief. Rose Williams From: Roy Flannagan [flannaga@oak.cats.ohiou.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 4:43 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request (Relevance of Milton) I asked a question on the mid-term in my Renaissance Lit class about why a modern fourteen-year-old might pick up the Faerie Queene and read it for the fun of it (this actually had happened with a student I had taught in a Shakespeare course: she read the whole damned thing in junior high!). The students liked the question so much that I played with it again on the final, given just this morning: If your fourteen-year-old niece or nephew saw your copy of Paradise Lost, why might you encourage her or him to read it (even, perhaps, in contrast with The Faerie Queene, which has more fairies and goblins and dragons in it)? That's one question on Paradise Lost that tried to relate it to what students might be interested in now, and here is another: There was a case of road rage in Los Angeles in which a raging man who had just been bumped gently by the car behind him, got out of his car, went to the window of the woman who had just hit, snatched the bichon fris=E9 (gentle, loving little dog) off her lap, and threw the dog into the highway, where it was run over. I thought of Satan in Paradise Lost. Can you tell me why I (or you) might think of Satan? I haven't read the tests yet, but I am looking forward to the answers to those questions. Roy Flannagan From: Khvoyles@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:50 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Hi All, For what's its worth as a 22 year old I taught PL to a group of undergrads for the first time this quarter. I started my sections (as someone who "really does" Jane Austen and the 18th c) with this quote from Faye Weldon's book _Letters to Alice on First Reading Jane Austen_: When I go on holiday, I read first the thrillers, then the sci-fi, then the instructional books, then _War and Peace_, or whatever book it is I know I ought to read, ought to have read, half want to read and only when reading want to fully. Of course one dreads it: of course it is overwhelming: one both anticipates and fears the kind of swooning, almost erotic pleasure that a good passage in a good book gives; as something nameless happens...It takes courage to comprehend not just what we are, but why we are. In other words, the question isn't just about PL and what it holds for us today. But rather why any text as old and loved (and contested and vexed) as PL is still important to us as 21st century types. Katherine From: Cobelli@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 10:14 PM To: Milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Some thoughts: The incredible physical spatial relationships (Satan's fall, the War in Heaven, the various vistas of heaven, earth and Hell) in Paradise Lost can perhaps be related to modern cinematic techniques and special effects in science fiction movies. Also the ambiguity about technology (and how industrial is the city of Satan) and the resultant knowledge we gain as man can now clone animals and perform other forms of genetic engineering. Scott Grunow From: Tmsandefur@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 12:28 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request <> Well, from the perspective of a complete layman, what I don't understand is how people can think of it as daunting. Yeah, there are passages in it that ramble a bit, with obscure classical references--but the ILIAD is the same way. It has a whole book dedicated to ships and captains, and everyone I know who reads it skipss that book. But we still read the ILIAD for the same reason that we read PARADISE LOST--because our teachers force us. JUST KIDDING. Seriously, I think it's because both books are deeply human, and deeply romantic. It's easy to look at them both as expressions of highbrow classicism and rigid intellect, but in fact both are very passionate, full of beautiful imagery, and psychological insight. The scene in the ILIAD when Hector removes his helmet because it frightens his child, and then tells his wife that he knows he will die, but he must fight for her anyway--that scene is every bit as touching and real and evocative of the greatest elements of humanity as it was when it was written. Such concepts of honor and integrity are unfashionable among many today, but I, for one, still greatly admire it. And the same is true of PARADISE LOST. The high drama of Satan's rebellion, with the strange hints at Milton's sympathy for a fellow revolutionary--and, for me, my favorite part of the poem, the scene when Adam describes to Raphael how he felt when he first saw Eve. That could not have been written by a man without a deep soul, capable of deep love. I think that scene rings home with anyone who can remember his first love. Milton's own disappointment with man can seem very cynical, but it's the cynicism that comes after the highest idealism. And that idealism still shines through in the poem. I think it's relevant today because people still love, and people still rebel, and people still strive for the noble and the heroic, and that, at bottom, is what the poem is about. Every line of it is written with Milton's personality--it reminds me of a line from Nietzsche, "all my truths are soaked in blood." So, too, are Milton's truths written with his whole spirit, and it's a spirit which we can admire today--a forward thinking, modern spirit (witness DOCTRINE OF DIVORCE, with its belief that marriage should be a spiritual union, written centuries before that was a popular notion); it was a free spirit (witness AREOPAGITICA, with its passionate belief that truth wins in a free encounter); and it was a spirit that truly believed in love and fighting for what is right--witness PARADISE LOST. I get a little carried away, but that's because I love this book. Timothy Sandefur Chapman U. Law School From: James Dougal Fleming [jdf26@columbia.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 12:58 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Re: Request Some welts of opinion: -- surveillance, omniscience (PL Bk9 re:Iridium Project [?sic?], _The Matrix_, _Enemy of the State_ and like updatings of Orwell) -- the already-dusty "virtual reality" (universe of PL as virtual space, war in heaven Bk6 as "virtual" battle) -- sex and sexuality (Bk 4, forms and limits of the erotic) -- environmentalism and work (Bks 4, 5, 7 [creation] and 9 -- proper relationship of human beings to nature -- ideal Paradisal/Georgic possibility of productive work that does not depredate) to scratch a few. James Dougal Fleming jdf26@columbia.edu On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, James wrote: > > I'm new to the Milton server, but would like to solicit the thoughts of > all you scholars and enthusiasts there in regard to the following peach > of a question: > > What worth does Milton's 'Paradise Lost' have for us today? > Why do we pick and read this text - what's in it that will resonate with > 21st Century society... > I'm thinking more of thematic stuff rather than looking at it in museum > terms for the wonderful use of language or its extraordinary > structure... > What ideas in it or aspects of it or passages of it transcend the > context and resound in what men and women of the world are doing today? > > The reason I ask is that with some friends I'm looking into a project > which will hopefully bring Milton to a much wider modern audience, but > to achieve this we sense we should first establish exactly why a > contemporary crowd ought to be paying attention to this daunting work. I > of course have some thoughts myself but I very much need a welt of > opinion. > > Any thoughts/help/wisdom/whatever anyone can give me will be hugely > appreciated. > > Best wishes to all, > > Jim Murphy, > London > From: Cynthia A. Gilliatt [gilliaca@jmu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 12:53 PM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Cc: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Request I'd venture several themes that resonate with my undergraduate students: Milton's high regard for liberty and his equally high regard for responsibility, which they find, often, troubling. They are also troubled by the figure of Satan, whom they want to like, and often do, closet Romantics that they are, but they also find Satan hard to hold onto as a hero throughout the poem, and this troubles them. I think that Milton makes them reexamine their assumptions about a number of core values, and that they sense that they in fact SHOULD be wrestling with them. I think they respect that in Milton which discourages glib and easy answers. Reading PL brings them to moral and ethical discussions which they rarely find in the many vocational courses and tracks which they university so eagerly steers them towards. My 2 cents or tuppence if you prefer, Cynthia -- JMU SAFE ZONES PARTICIPANT Cynthia A. Gilliatt English Department MSC 1801 James Madison University Harrisonburg VA 22807 gilliaca@jmu.edu http://raven.jmu.edu/~gilliaca/ 540-568-3762 or 6202 From: James [james@catgut.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 10:06 AM To: milton-l@richmond.edu Subject: Request I'm new to the Milton server, but would like to solicit the thoughts of all you scholars and enthusiasts there in regard to the following peach of a question: What worth does Milton's 'Paradise Lost' have for us today? Why do we pick and read this text - what's in it that will resonate with 21st Century society... I'm thinking more of thematic stuff rather than looking at it in museum terms for the wonderful use of language or its extraordinary structure... What ideas in it or aspects of it or passages of it transcend the context and resound in what men and women of the world are doing today? The reason I ask is that with some friends I'm looking into a project which will hopefully bring Milton to a much wider modern audience, but to achieve this we sense we should first establish exactly why a contemporary crowd ought to be paying attention to this daunting work. I of course have some thoughts myself but I very much need a welt of opinion. Any thoughts/help/wisdom/whatever anyone can give me will be hugely appreciated. Best wishes to all, Jim Murphy, London From: Amy Stackhouse [adstack@westga.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 12:36 PM To: 'milton-l@richmond.edu' Subject: poemata preface Is it known whether Milton authored the Latin Preface to the Testimonia in the second half of the 1645 volume? If he didn't, does anyone know who did? Thanks for your help! Amy Stackhouse Amy D. Stackhouse, Ph.D. Department of English and Philosophy State University of West Georgia Carrollton, GA 30117 Adstack@westga.edu